Comments for "G-20: "Obama Signals Flexibility""
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
Nemo?
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sat Mar 28 17:41:11 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
This comment thread has been HALO-IZED by CRbot.
http://realize.org/cr/halokit.php?halourl=http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/3392057723619326564
CRbot Sat Mar 28 17:41:42 2009 CDT #
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) says:
If the O-team can't convince the G20 to print & spend then the dollar's days are even shorter than previously suspected.
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) Sat Mar 28 17:46:46 2009 CDT #
Bad Dawg Bobby says:
Hay, I just thought of something, What if Obama is wrong and They are right!!
NAAAAAA
Bad Dawg Bobby Sat Mar 28 17:47:30 2009 CDT #
longwaver says:
What can any of these countries do? They are all going bankrupt, just on different timelines. At some point all of the wealth stored in US dollars will need to be spent, then it gets interesting.
I'm starting to like iTulip's KA-POOM more every day... What currency is in your wallet?
longwaver Sat Mar 28 17:48:00 2009 CDT #
Jay D. says:
...........I expect China raises super currency issue and France and other european nations support that idea...........
Jay D. Sat Mar 28 17:50:43 2009 CDT #
joe shmoe says:
your tax dollars at work:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/28/business/28goldman.html?_r=1
The financial giant Goldman Sachs spent tens of millions of dollars to bail out two senior executives last fall who were short on cash, according to the bank’s proxy statement filed on Friday.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 28 17:52:04 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
"If the O-team can't convince the G20 to print & spend then the dollar's days are even shorter than previously suspected."
OK, so I am thinking the same thing: If we print more cash than they print, our bucks are worth comparatively less, generally, kinda, on a good day, or is it a bad day - maybe.
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 28 17:53:28 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Tabloid Headline: Geithner Backs Away From Stupidity Shocker!
About fkn time dimwits.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 17:54:28 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
He should meet with the Put People First demonstrators.
reptillian Sat Mar 28 17:57:41 2009 CDT #
dumbhope says:
I hope the countries promise to make it a better place for you and for me.
dumbhope Sat Mar 28 18:04:21 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Something I really like about CR's posts is the understatement, like those expecting anything of substance from the G20 are likely to be disappointed.
Far out. From practitioners like me, this is so drily hilairious I don't quite how to translate it for a wider audience.
I'm trying to get a feed from the communique drafters. I'll see what I can share.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 18:04:41 2009 CDT #
ATM card, $19 etc... says:
I'm lost and confused. What was the consensus expectation for this G20 meeting? I had the idea that Geithner's call for increased regulation earlier this week was an olive branch and a prelude to the G20 members agreeing in return to honor the U.S. request for coordinated stimulus. Clearly I misunderstood. So what do savvier observers think will come out of the meeting?
ATM card, $19 etc... Sat Mar 28 18:09:34 2009 CDT #
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) says:
Counterpointer,
If anything I've learned here these past few years it's that CR is a MASTER of understatement.
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) Sat Mar 28 18:09:46 2009 CDT #
Ish Kabibble says:
George Soros, the man who broke the Bank, sees a global meltdown
'The G20 summit in London next week is, he says, the last chance to avert disaster. “The odds would favour that it fails because there are such differences of opinion. It’s difficult enough to get it right in your own country let alone with 20 governments coming together, but if it’s a failure I think then the global financial and trading system falls apart.”
If the G20 is nothing but a talking shop then he thinks we are heading for meltdown. “That could push the world into depression. It’s really a make-or-break occasion. That’s why it’s so important.” The chances of a depression are, he says, “quite high” – even if that is averted, the recession will last a long time. “Look, we are not going back to where we came from. In that sense it’s going to last for ever.” '
<h2 class="title">G20 'make or break', Soros says</h2>
'Billionaire investor Gorge Soros has said the G20 summit will be a "make or break" event for the world's economy.'
Ish Kabibble Sat Mar 28 18:13:06 2009 CDT #
savvy investor says:
"So what do savvier observers think will come out of the meeting?"
Nothing.
savvy investor Sat Mar 28 18:15:12 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
counterpointer...what does practicioner mean?
Wonder how soros is positioned? Robertson is short dollar / long bond...
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:18:52 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
If the O-team can't convince the G20 to print & spend then the dollar's days are even shorter than previously suspected.
Yep, if someone refuses to play the devaluation game, this won't last long.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 18:19:32 2009 CDT #
MarK says:
Well, Obama preached transparency during the campaign and it's pretty transparent that he doubts he will get what he wants and he doesn't want it to look like a defeat.
MarK Sat Mar 28 18:19:52 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
Counterpointer was a sherpa once.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 18:19:56 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
My publisher is having my next book printed in China. When I spoke with her today she mentioned it, and then laughed. If they're still in business, she said.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 18:21:22 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
...........I expect China raises super currency issue and France and other european nations support that idea...........
Nothing would end the US trade deficit faster than an end to the dollar reserve status... China better have other customers in mind - ones that can pay in the new and improved 'super currency'. If I were Obama I'd jump all over that suggestion - a 'make my day' moment.
dryfly Sat Mar 28 18:21:40 2009 CDT #
jay says:
all bluster by the Chinese. We have them over a barrel and they know it. What is going to happen if the US were to say to them and a whole bunch of foreign investors- you know all this debt you hold well we are only going to pay it back 40cents on the dollar. Can't happen- that is exactly what Roosevelt did when he changed the exchange rate of the dollar versus gold from $20/oz to $33/oz.
What are the Chinese going to do send gun boats into NY harbor to take control of the customs house???
Parent Post
jay Sun Mar 29 07:55:37 2009 CDT #
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) says:
Soros, like Roubini and others, likes to hold out hope where none is warranted. I guess it gives them an out should the extremely improbable occur.
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) Sat Mar 28 18:22:34 2009 CDT #
Tom Stone says:
Now,now CR! A substantial amount of fine food and booze will be consumed and high end hookers and dope dealers will do a substantial amount of business.From each according to their abilities...
Tom Stone Sat Mar 28 18:23:21 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
One thing to remember about the EU is they spend a lot more per citizen already - if nothing else for their 'socialized medicine' and cushier welfare state... so they really don't feel compelled to 'stimulate'. At least not the Northern & Western Europeans... Southern & Eastern maybe not so much in agreement.
dryfly Sat Mar 28 18:25:48 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Atm & $19 - there was no consensus, there never has been. Over the last week the ambition and objectives, and the coalitions around them, have steadily and progressively broken down. The host has been wounded by a gilt issue failure and the eruption of civil war between the PM, central bank guvnor and the Chancellor. Nice timing. China has been issuing challenge statements, not that anything they csuggest could actually be implemented. Germany is not playing the game, at least not in the same way, France is keeping its powder dry. Eastern Europe is screaming.
Let's think about Bretton Woods. Many years of papers being sent back and forth between the creators, a meeting of many countries which took 21 days or so full-time to negotiate, and years to ratify.
Sooo, what do people expect from this G20 thingy?
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 18:27:10 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
Now,now CR! A substantial amount of fine food and booze will be consumed and high end hookers and dope dealers will do a substantial amount of business.
And that is only for Roubini...
dryfly Sat Mar 28 18:28:12 2009 CDT #
orange juice says:
you know it's interesting that for all those who scream about dollar weakness etc., it's still holding up pretty well and had a massive jump on friday. Next week is a huge week for the EU regardless with sentiment, inflation and interest rate decisions I doubt that politicians will have any real say in how this goes down anyway. upcoming things to watch for in april in the US will be the q1 financial earnings (did pandit lie?), ism manfg, and the employment report.
orange juice Sat Mar 28 18:28:13 2009 CDT #
sportsfan says:
your tax dollars at work:
joe, that statement is simply false. There were no tax dollars involved.
Moreover, it was a bailout. The company purchased a small part of the executives private holdings (not GS stock) so that the executives would not have to sell GS stock on the open market (with all the negative connotations that apply to insider sales).
To avoid the stock sales, Goldman paid Mr. Winkelried, who retired last month, $19.7 million to purchase about 30 percent of his investments in internal hedge funds and private equity investments.
The bank paid $38.3 million to Mr. Palm for about a quarter of his investments.
It would seem that Mr. Winkelried retained about 70% of his investment in internal hedge funds and private equity investments and that Mr. Palm retained about 75% of his investments.
So far as I know, each also continues to own over a million shares of GS.
sportsfan Sat Mar 28 18:29:06 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Byz - "once"?! If only. Slightly different sh!tpile, but you're right.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 18:31:41 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
you know it's interesting that for all those who scream about dollar weakness etc., it's still holding up pretty well and had a massive jump on friday.
My guess is there are a few central banks bitching publicly about the dollar and still buying USD assets like crazy in quiet [*cough* PBOC *cough* BOJ]... and that will continue until either they give up on the US consumer market OR the US consumer really crashes [slowing to 2003-04 levels of consumption isn't a 'crash'... is a slight 'wilt' - we'll all know crash when we see it - so will China].
Be interesting.
dryfly Sat Mar 28 18:34:02 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
Government Sucks partly owns the US govt and Obama must be a big c---sucker. I know, dopes have faith in democracy no matter what.
Do dopes understand organized, or planned, PLUNDER of the general populace? And there is nothing like blind faith to facilitate plunder.
Jas
Jas Sat Mar 28 18:37:35 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
Left and right wingnut cocksuckers are equal opportunity PLUNDERS.
Parent Post
Michael Sat Mar 28 19:19:57 2009 CDT #
notional billionaire says:
Michael, what gives you the right to plaster this otherwise excellent blog with your obscenities?
Parent Post
notional billionaire Sat Mar 28 19:54:53 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Freedom of speech and no censorship.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 20:07:04 2009 CDT #
traderwalt says:
When I make a prediction about something that I really don't know very much about, I'm nearly always wrong. So here's my current thought: The G20 is conducting a noble experiment. The US, Japan and China are trying to stimulate their economies by deficit spending and the Europeans are trying more bank fixing and less spending. Of course the two approaches will overlap in some areas, but maybe they (g20 elite) can figure out which approach is better in time for the less effective approach to be abandoned and changed to the better approach.
traderwalt Sat Mar 28 18:38:31 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Traderwalt - you're right that it's an experiment, but I'm not sure of the noble element. G7 and G20 meetings have been going on for years and their record of policy comprehension and coordination, and the structures that underpin them, is especially poor. I just wonder if it's inevitable.
For instance, G20 agrees on XYZ, and Congress says FORGET IT. UK
Government falls because of perceived incompetence. German campaign next year invariably gets crabby about this situation.
For any public policy peeps out there, here's the test: when was the last time you took a G20 statement into a strategy or budget meeting and it made the slightest bit of difference?? That is, if you weren't laughed out of the room.
C
Parent Post
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 18:51:54 2009 CDT #
sportsfan says:
...........I expect China raises super currency issue and France and other european nations support that idea...........
Nothing would end the US trade deficit faster than an end to the dollar reserve status..
I don't know that there is any middle ground between a mild unilateral devaluation and loss of reserve status, but, if there isn't, I also hope Obama considers the unilateral devaluation angle.
It's inevitable in any event. Why not time it to some advantage?
sportsfan Sat Mar 28 18:38:55 2009 CDT #
RE says:
OK, so I am thinking the same thing: If we print more cash than they print, our bucks are worth comparatively less, generally, kinda, on a good day, or is it a bad day - maybe.
It is not as simplistic as this. The fact is that most of the European countries have automatic stabilizers.
This is a sample of one:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=an0ME5IcV5bY&refer=home
... Hawe hasn’t fired any of its employees this year, mostly because of subsidies under Germany’s so-called short-work system, established in 1910. The government pays 60 percent of an employee’s salary and welfare contributions on the days that workers stand idle. The subsidy rises to 67 percent for employees with children. ...
Comparing spending programs therefore is far too simple an approach if one really wants to understand what is going on.
<img src="data:image/png;base64,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"/>
RE Sat Mar 28 18:39:40 2009 CDT #
sportsfan says:
On the G20, I would imagine most all of the commenters here have attended scheduled meetings where they knew in advance that nothing would be accomplished, but attendance was, as they say, mandatory.
So be it. I doubt any bar fights will break out.
sportsfan Sat Mar 28 18:42:21 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
at some point, a country is going to decide to simply default and flush. That country would probablybe one that is food sufficient. Seems to me Eastern Euorpe has the better hand in this debate. It is really the Euro banks that are on the receiving end of this daisy chaon and in turn the US through counterhedging etc. WHo knows the magnitude, But the posturing about EE and the like appears to be merely that.
The death cocktail would be a default followed by a soft repudiation of "hard" fx..in other words country x defaults and sends down a lit fuse to Sov X (Eurozone). In turn curreny devalues, inlfation imposted (but against what?) and rates rise as expected. Economy chokes further. But what if country x already figures that they are being returned to an agrarian society? What then. Eurozone has no choice but to suck them under the umbrella toprotect themselves. Seems all talk to the countrary as in haggling between IMF and Latvia back and forth is mere window dressing. E/E sits with hand on trigger damn the torpedoes.
So if country x defaults and is a major ag country - with some enregy kicker, seems like that is a place I want to be long. So who are those countries?
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 18:44:51 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
So if country x defaults and is a major ag country - with some enregy kicker, seems like that is a place I want to be long. So who are those countries?
Strong ag strong energy - Russia, Brazil
Parent Post
dryfly Sat Mar 28 19:09:18 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I can't tell any more when y'all are being sarcastic.
Perhaps you are being sarcastically sincere. Or sincerely sarcastic.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 18:45:09 2009 CDT #
Werner says:
<!--StartFragment -->
..."G-20: "Obama Signals Flexibility"...
-------
Ludicrous .
America get's kicked out of the G-20 and the dollar dropped as reserve currency ! (and nobody asks theese credit junkies.)
Who do these AAA-liars and money-printers think they are.
The world is a better place without them !
They all along knew what they did and did not care. Now it is too late.
America needs to be avoided like the plague !!
Werner Sat Mar 28 18:47:27 2009 CDT #
dr strangemoney says:
Overheard while grabbing a free sandwich for lunch in downtown London today...
Pardon me, would you have any Grey Poupon?
dr strangemoney Sat Mar 28 18:50:11 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Ok, it ate my comment. Didn't check to see if the buttons were there.
Anyway, I can reproduce it because I am still laughing.
A noble experiment. . . .a noble experiment?????
Hahahahahqahahahahaheheheheheheheh.
Only Misean or CSC would have a sufficiently sarcastic response.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 18:51:34 2009 CDT #
aClem says:
Dryfly,
I can see why abandoning the dollar might be bad for Chinese exports, but how would it be good for the USA (Obama)? Wouldn't the Chinese stop buying our debt in that event?
aClem Sat Mar 28 18:53:38 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
I can see why abandoning the dollar might be bad for Chinese exports, but how would it be good for the USA (Obama)? Wouldn't the Chinese stop buying our debt in that event?
A weak dollar would suck for USD denominated assets transfered into another currency and those who hold them - it would be WONDERFUL for US workers and middle class in general [most all their consumption is USD based]. If you wanted to be certain Americans would continue to work - blow up the dollar. It also insures high unemployment in export based economies which is why I can't understand why the Chines want a super currency.
In short a weak dollar means we 'work' more but that work is worth 'less'.
And 'no' the Chinese won't stop buying our debt UNTIL they decide they want to stop selling their goods to us. Those two are as coupled as yin & yang.
Parent Post
dryfly Sat Mar 28 19:17:57 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
You know. The U.S. does produce lots of food. And some energy. And we have enuf cars stockpiled to last a really long time.
We do do some mining and manufacturing.
Go long US!!
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 18:54:20 2009 CDT #
KR says:
After reading the Quiet Coup about 5 times, to think here and there, and think some more again and again, to absorb, it finally sunk in that this is a social problem as much as anything else. The key proposition is that a culture driven by non-productive works (finance) has hghjacked the government (over time) , and that one of the seven deadly sins has capsized a possibly brief experiment in capitalism. The US economy cannot run at 41% of corporate profits owing to this sector. It won't work...what now? Jas asked the question earlier. There is no answer. None that we like.
KR Sat Mar 28 18:55:48 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
"None that we like."
I don't say anything now that I have not pondered for years. There are only two probable outcomes to take on the banking and finance Crooks—military coup and election of the American Hitler. I have concluded that based on the American military tradition (BTW, I know many English, German and Scottish Americans that come from a long line of military tradition) the former, even though preferable of the two, is less likely. I am open to a real solution that has a high probability. I have not been able to think of, or agree with, one. Secession isn't going to happen without lot of violence, IMO.
Jas
Parent Post
Jas Sat Mar 28 19:10:49 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
perfectly simple answer. Act like a patriot (not Republican or Democrat) Send a letter to your congressman and Senator telling them that you have taken a pledge to vote against them at the next election if they support legislation that continues to sell out to Wall Street.. Truth is nothing terrible would happen if we went back to the early 80's in terms of financial regulation before we threw our faith into a deregulated financial system.
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:07:11 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Aw, cmon Liz, I was being very subtle re noble experiment. I thought it was ironic.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 18:55:49 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"The key proposition is that a culture driven by non-productive works (finance) has hghjacked the government (over time) , and that one of the seven deadly sins has capsized a possibly brief experiment in capitalism."
Yes, and then take it one step or two further back.
This is a moral problem befrore it is a financial or economic problem.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:00:21 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
...The present day "Thomas Paine" (Bob Basso) sure is getting a lot of deserved hype. We had him as a speaker at a business seminar a while back - helluva motivational speaker. Obama must be getting concerned with his Tom Paine rendition - inviting him to the White House "to discuss the disturbing nature of the videos."
http://maggiesnotebook.blogspot.com/2009/03/bob-basso-is-thomas-paine-we-people.html
or,
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 28 19:01:40 2009 CDT #
Bob the Builder says:
Dude. That is sweet. I'm going to Sams Club to get some Tea bags!
Parent Post
Bob the Builder Sat Mar 28 22:25:44 2009 CDT #
volker the viking says:
O signals 'flexibility'...
HA hahahahahahaha
flexible to the point of flaccidity. Once the lights go out...... performance anxiety?
volker the viking Sat Mar 28 19:03:59 2009 CDT #
Outsider says:
Obviously Iceland is not part of the G20. But how is Iceland doing these days? What is their future?
Outsider Sat Mar 28 19:05:21 2009 CDT #
volker the viking says:
Iceland? They have herring, two pounds for a dollar.
volker the viking Sat Mar 28 19:06:13 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
I expect the G20 to work on establishing a new global currency and be hush hush about it. It is in the best interest to the rest of the world to distance itself from the biggest debtor nation the world has ever known. It is not statically possible for the US tax payer to repay it's enormous debt to the rest of the world without dramatically devaluing our currency, and the rest of the world knows it. Many nations of the world are in a much better position to weather the global depression and will survive a much less severe outcome if the cut themselves off from the US sooner rather than later. Otherwise, they are going to suffer as bad or worse than America during our complete and total economic collapse.
Michael Sat Mar 28 19:10:18 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Pavel:
The whole morality meme has gone back here for years and is correct.
Everything rises and falls upon a common understanding/grasp of the concept of right and wrong. Morality is the common thread through everything.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:10:31 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Strong ag strong energy - Russia..."
Russia is 'designed' for survival. But she must do something about that birth rate, and about demographic problems in general.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:13:09 2009 CDT #
sportsfan says:
BSR, I didn't notice anything particularly disturbing about Basso's video. He may have used the term (and the invitation) as a form of self-promotion.
Virtually everything he said has been said before and will be said again.
I'm sure whoever he meets with at the WH will tell him Obama is a great guy and so on.
sportsfan Sat Mar 28 19:14:32 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I don't think most people have any morality, and I don't know in what halcyon days they ever had any.
Since I am an agnostic, I take morality very seriously. In a Darwinian world, where nobody is (likely) gonna punish you in this life or after it (if you have a modicum of brains and luck), why should you be moral.
All those good Christians and Jews running around out there in the privacy of my inner sanctum, reveal, that when their own financial self interest is involved, the vasssst majority have no morality whatsoever. I'm not gonna tell (unless they say they're planning to murder or rape somebody) and they know it, so they will let their hair down, and it's plenty ugly.
A couple of times, I've said, hey, I'm the aetheist/agnostic here, (depending on how anti religious I'm feeling at the moment) don't you hear what you are saying? Doesn't this sorta conflict with what you say you believe it? Nobody ever said, oops, you are right, what was I thinking.
My conclusion is that the vast majority of people really just worship money/assets/stuff, and have no concept that you can have too much of any of those. It is probably Darwinian--ancestors with more stuff survived better and more numerously.
But this is really not a pleasant existence. I've known a few con artists in my time--who didn't seem to realize I knew they were con artists--who were merely minor league cons, selling almost but not quite worthless stuff on the phone, say--and they were always sick. They didn't seem to realize that their sickness might be caused by the strains of lying to themselves.
I have concluded that some morality can be derived from natural law theory, and the self detructiveness of those societies that have abandoned all their pretences, some of unknown derivation and at least a third of justice and morality is an art object, same as a painting or sculpture. And because it is an art object, created and kept in existence by us humans, it must be held onto with great determination and fierceness, a fist shaken at the non-forces of entropy. Which may always win in the end, but so what? Our dignity is preserved by holding on.
Not on my watch. . . .
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:16:16 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
Morality has been debased, even discredited, in favor of amorality. The Almighty Buck has repalced Almighty God. A bad idea.
Every civilization rose out of some firm concept of morality, including a religion, even when it is open to debate and criticism.
WHAT IS AMERICA'S RELIGION AND ITS "GODS?" NO "GODS," NO MORALITY!
Jas
Parent Post
Jas Sat Mar 28 19:25:53 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
Since I am an agnostic, I take morality very seriously.
What does morality have to do with God?
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:10:51 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Everything rises and falls upon a common understanding/grasp of the concept of right and wrong. Morality is the common thread through everything. "
Without social solidarity based on absolute moral principles there is nothing but eventual collapse - for any society, at any time. Administrative technique, no matter how ingenious, is not sufficient.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:17:09 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Dryfly:
Actually, I came up with Brazil and Canada. I don't know how self-sufficient Russia is with food and whether that aspect has recovered from the Soviet period.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:18:51 2009 CDT #
traderwalt says:
homedad 43,
Russia exports lots of wheat. I think they have exported about 8 mmt. since October last year and this is only part of the marketing year (but probably the busiest part) and that's only one ag commodity.
Parent Post
traderwalt Sat Mar 28 19:30:22 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
"Secession isn't going to happen without lot of violence, IMO."
It's kind of like having a weekly poker game at the bosses house. Every week he supplies the booze, the refreshments, the chicks, sets up the tables, he's a great host. Every week he loses and writes a check for the losses. Until recently, his checks were good. What are the other players to do? The weekly poker game at his house is mandatory - failure to show might mean termination and/or stopping payment on the checks. Kinda touchy situation.
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 28 19:20:31 2009 CDT #
NorkaWest says:
I return to the question that was asked a few nights ago:
1. "Does the financial sector exist to support the Real economy?", or
2. "Does the Real economy exist to support the financial sector?"
After the Great Depression of the 1930s, our grandfathers chose option 1 and gave us two generations of an improving economy.
Our current leadership is chosing option 2.
NorkaWest Sat Mar 28 19:20:56 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
I think that you have very succinctly summed up the challenge.
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:13:12 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
I have a strong hunch that if there is going to be a calamity, it will be one that hardly any of us has anticipated.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:22:18 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Aw sh!t this is one of those Saturday night deal where we can't detract attention to the Asian markets, or my other tactics, but at least you haven't gone completely doomsborough quite yet.
But for those who went the other thing ten years ago.. what you you reckon?
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 19:23:00 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
I believe Brazil and Russia are not yet net exporters. They use much of what food they produce - we don't. But then that was info from school - 50-year old stuff. LOL
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 28 19:24:00 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
Brazil is a net exporter of corn, soya beans and sugar. The are also a net exporter of crude oil although I believe they import refined products.
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:14:25 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Why do all moral principals have to be absolute? A few do, maybe.
I note that about 70% of moral principals are common from society to society. The rest aren't and the differing societies can work pretty well at least for a while.
What society has ever been noticeably moral? I know of some that have been particularly immoral.
Name some of the moral ones.
There does have to be mutual respect. There do have to be a certain number of people who have to be pretty moral most of the time to counterweigh the ones who don't even understand the issues.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:24:28 2009 CDT #
sportsfan says:
. . . so they will let their hair down, and it's plenty ugly.
Ah, yes, people once the thin veneer of civilization has been chipped away.
But, Liz, so long as you continue to meet them in your office, you have no idea just how ugly they can be.
I also believe in firm moral standards and for the same reasons, but I don't think most folks operate on that level.
sportsfan Sat Mar 28 19:25:32 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I said that several nites ago when we were talking about Mexico. I suggested a Mexican incident as being the trigger to something. I said that afterwards, everyone would say it was completely obvious, but beforehand now, it is not at all obvious.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:28:37 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
There is an ineluctable logic in every social system, which drives it to make choices it may not renounce without a great struggle.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:29:06 2009 CDT #
Baca says:
KR, I read the Quiet Coup as well, and I usually read Simon Johnson at the baselinescenario. What he is describing, and with those currently with the power, the same ones that caused the problem (bank CEOs, etc.), I don't see how this problem gets solved this year or next. I believe things will have to get much worse before there are any actions to undo it.
Baca Sat Mar 28 19:30:11 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Liz:
I understand your opinion on majority of religious folks and morality. I used to be a claims adjuster/manager and the hypocrisy from those people did put a serious dent in my own belief system. As my BIL states, Christ promised us the Kingdom and gave us the church...
I honestly believe that part of the problem is that our society has been "programmed" for decades to find some form of happiness/satisfaction through consumption and material wealth. It's difficult to help kids delineate need vs want when we are all bombarded with the message that want >need.
This goes for people of faith as well as anybody else.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:30:38 2009 CDT #
ATM card, $19 etc... says:
Lawyerliz,
Isn't there an adverse selection fallacy at work if you base your argument on what people tell you within the sanctuary of the attorney-client privilege? Don't misunderstand: I think the privilege is valuable; indeed, once upon a time the practice of law was considered a healing art. But along those same lines, don't you eventually have to view your practice a little like a church: a hospital for sinners and not a mansion for saints?
ATM card, $19 etc... Sat Mar 28 19:31:15 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"NO "GODS," NO MORALITY! "
C. S. Lewis put it this way (paraphrasing): Go with God or go with the demons.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:31:49 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Traderwalt:
Thanks.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:34:28 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"I used to be a claims adjuster/manager and the hypocrisy from those people did put a serious dent in my own belief system."
Those people too are part of society.
Not everyone who prays on a street corner is inwardly pious. The God-loving people are not always easy to see. Usually not, probably. Humility doesn't show off. It prefers to work without being seen.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:36:14 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Interesting. I am forced to reply to Jas. Why no God/s/desses no morality?
How about Kali?
Or Coatlicue? (sp).
Being good because you think the mother goddess will punish you if you are bad, is the worst possible reason to be good. I prefer to think of some better reason. If, however, it holds some people in check some of the time, I suppose that is good. It doesn't satify me tho. I prefer some better reason.
And remember people, I'm neither a criminal nor a divorce attorney, so I DO NOT see them at their absolute worst. In fact, sometimes I see them at very happy times of their life. Maybe it would be better if I were one of those kinds of attys; then I could tell myself I was just seeing them at a bad time in their lives.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:36:29 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
Lawyerliz,
I am sorry that you feel forced to reply. There are cults in all civilizations. People are people and they succumb to cults everywhere that I know of. Religion and cults are easily distinguishable. The cult of personality, very common in America, is no better that any cult of gods and goddesses, including the cult of Kali in India.
I can see that you are not very tolerant of different points of views.
Jas
Parent Post
Jas Sat Mar 28 19:50:52 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Why do all moral principals have to be absolute? A few do, maybe. "
Ten, perhaps?
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:37:51 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
that is exactly the problem. Turn off your brain don't challenge yourself and accept what somebody carved on a stone as whats right. I think if people spent more time thinking for themselve what is right and wrong we would have a moral sociiety. That is why organized religion is such a disservice to society.
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:19:33 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Ahhh, so I am demonic?? Didn't think I was. . .
I don't believe in demons either.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:37:53 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
There is an ineluctable logic in every social system, which drives it to make choices it may not renounce without a great struggle.
--------------------------------------
Pavel:
Suggest that you might appreciate "The Fifties" by David Halberstam.
This ties in nicely with some decisions made by big business/industry in the '40s/'50s. They were intent to prevent a return to the '30s behavior of stuffing all of the spare cash into the mattress instead of using it to spur economic activity.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:38:35 2009 CDT #
PitchPole says:
Not completely doomsborough yet? I'm assuming this is CR strength understatement....
Interesting observation today - me and my much better half are part of a "mothers of multiples" group that provides community and sponsors swap sales twice a year - at least partly open to the public. The sales have kiddie goods of all types heaped on tables at a local school, priced to move - a lot of good clothes, equipment, toys, etc. Years past we wind up searching through mounds of unsold goods to find our unsold items to donate or try to resell. The spring sale this year was no different at the beginning with the piles and piles of stuff for sale. Big difference at the end - the place was stripped nearly completely bare. We sold nearly everything, even the items I rolled my eyes at while unloading the minivan. Unbelievable....
PitchPole Sat Mar 28 19:38:58 2009 CDT #
Baca says:
"Our current leadership is chosing option 2."
Every administration since and including Reagan has chosen option 2. After all, we don't want to stifle the financial sector's creativity.
Baca Sat Mar 28 19:39:29 2009 CDT #
sanjay says:
you mean the campaign donations that flow from that sector. No politician would accept campaign donations from the pornographic industry. We as citizens should make it clear to our elected officials that a donation from the financial sector has the same moral implication as a donation from the pornographic industry. Take the pledge not to vote for any politician who takes money from that industry.
Parent Post
sanjay Sun Mar 29 08:22:07 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I've read pretty much C.S. Lewis had to write (except the later Narnia books, which got kinda weak.). Loved the Screwtape letters, and the Perelandia Trilogy. But, it's fantasy, same as Harry Potter. Hmm, think I'll see if I can find the Screwtape Letters, so much was lost in Hurricane Andrew, and read 'm again. Lewis has useful insights like all other authors worth reading.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:40:54 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
ATM/$19:
Your comment about hospital for sinners is well said.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:41:06 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
It is interesting there is a discussion here about morality. Do you want to kno why it is important to be moral? Find out who you really are. Here is a good place to start the process of learning true knowledge.
Esoteric Agenda
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6030443037963555139
KYMATICA
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6736722752013377089&hl=en
When you bring harm to others, you are really bringing harm to yourself.
Michael Sat Mar 28 19:43:42 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Pavel:
Suggest that you might appreciate "The Fifties" by David Halberstam. "
Thanks, Homedad.
I'm about to read an old Time/Life book about the Battle of the Bulge. It was one of those times in which the demons came out of the shadows and displayed themselves in broad daylight.
Most of us lead very protected lives.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:44:34 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
THE ONE WHO CARRIES THESE
I lift my cross, my passion’s share,
I am the cross that I must bear,
The wood of it has grown of girth,
It is as hard as my own birth,
I bear it till my shoulders bleed
The blood of those I failed to need,
And needing me they bear also
The weight I carry as I go,
Each the other’s cross must grip,
An agony of fellowship,
The One who carries these must fall
Three times so heavy are they all
Pavel
March 27, 2009
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:47:57 2009 CDT #
acwlms says:
Jas,
A lot of people in America support Pope Benedict XVI. Just remember a few months back if you've already forgot about his visit.
Pope Benedict is about as moral as you're going to get these days...
...so there is still hope for America.
There might be some suffering to come, but maybe thats a way for god to correct the "vanity bubble" that you seem to be referring to, and which you imply has no means of being popped. Maybe the Almighty has other plans...and I trust in Him.
Go Pope Benedict XVI! Never stop supporting truth and virtue throughout the world!!
acwlms Sat Mar 28 19:49:04 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
Influence of the Pope, no matter how great, in America is miniscule compared to the Crooks. The Church has lost influence over its flock. BTW, I have many very close friends who are Catholics and Pope is rarely mentioned in any context.
Sorry, no go.
Jas
Parent Post
Jas Sat Mar 28 19:56:58 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Yeah, I feel like a shrink or a priestess a lot of the time.
I mean I ask them do you really think this is right? What are the consequences.
My, you have got yourself in a mess, how can we weasel out of it.
Occasionally: don't be a doormat!!
Mr. Evitee: you are a smart man, why have you got this charitable
organization kicking you out? They've given you a zillion chances, you
are in a nice situation, why not behave. I think that some people really can't behave. I think some people ARE tempted beyond their strength and thinking otherwise is merely telling ourselves conforting lies.
And how about that more moral society? Name just one.
And Pavel, do you really think I run with the demons?
My mother asked me if I worried about going to hell, drives me crazy, and
I said, what did I ever do that you think is in the same league with. . .oops, buzzz, buzz, Godwin alarm, ok, Attila the Hun or the Mongol hordes?
Some question for you Pavel!!
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:50:05 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Grr, look like my latest isn't gonna post.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:52:32 2009 CDT #
Fried says:
"Without social solidarity based on absolute moral principles..."
Seriously, what "absolute moral principles" do you mean?
Fried Sat Mar 28 19:52:56 2009 CDT #
Baca says:
Europeans don't like the American version of capitalism. Other countries don't either. From the NYT article:
'In the past, American officials traveled to India, Brazil, China and South Africa and lectured government officials on the need for open markets, free trade and deregulation. But now some of those very policies — particularly deregulation — are viewed as the culprits for the recent economic collapse.'
Geez, they don't think crony capitalism and free markets are all that great. Hoocoodanode?
One positive from this crisis - it proves that the Friedmanites and Chicago School's economic theories don't work in the real world. Perhaps we'll stop teaching that nonsense.
Baca Sat Mar 28 19:53:48 2009 CDT #
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) says:
I have a strong hunch that if there is going to be a calamity, it will be one that hardly any of us has anticipated.
Agree with the latter, but "strong hunch"? The calamity is assured.
Comrade Bear (tj and the bear) Sat Mar 28 19:54:52 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I'm just tired of the word dope.
Ratzinger??? You guys like Ratzinger??
Mr. Kick all the Gay priests out even tho it's half the priesthood Ratzinger?
Mr. Muslems are bad? Mr. Don't Consult with Anybody, 'cause after all you are infallible???
Roncali, Roncali, where are you?
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 19:57:31 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Seriously, what "absolute moral principles" do you mean?"
The ten commandments are as good as any place to start. Most cultures have their own versions, or they become a mob of the miserable. But lately, I've been watching how people drive, and wondering how many of them think they have to obey the law only if a policeman is watching.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:57:39 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Liz:
Screwtape Letters is a great example of the cynical view of life. You might also enjoy "Letters from the Earth" by Mark Twain.
I grew up in a very conservative religious area. Told by more than one person that I'm going to hell for one reason or another and have come to the conclusion that a relationship with God is ultimately very personal.
It's a real struggle to balance things right now. Especially when I share things with the older kids and they question why we should continue with the mortgage, etc. Yeah, I've heard that...
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 19:58:55 2009 CDT #
eponymous says:
Banks and churches. Churches and banks.
They both require a level of faith. It's just real estate folks.
eponymous Sat Mar 28 19:59:48 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"BTW, I have many very close friends who are Catholics and Pope is rarely mentioned in any context. "
We have read many of his books.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 19:59:50 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
CR writes: Those expecting anything of substance from the G-20 meeting will probably be disappointed
Well, it all depends on one's definition of "substance".
If it means the idea of the world unified around a common economic program to fight the global downturn, then yes, of course, it won't happen
If it means the manifestation of the change in the global power balance and of the waning of the American global leadership, then it will be very substantive.
From NY Times: Obama Will Face a Defiant World on Foreign Visit
<<
Despite his immense popularity around the world, Mr. Obama will confront resentment over American-style capitalism and resistance to his economic prescriptions when he lands in London on Tuesday for the Group of 20 summit meeting of industrial and emerging market nations plus the European Union.
...
Mr. Obama will try to show confidence that his stimulus and economic program will work, administration officials said, while conceding that it may take time. He will say that he has put all the pieces in place to fix the American economy, while acknowledging that in a global system nations cannot put up walls to protect their individual economies.
...
“The U.S. brand name has clearly suffered from this crisis, and the rest of the world is no longer willing to sit quietly and be lectured by the United States on how they should conduct economic policy,” Mr. Rogoff said.
...
In the past, American officials traveled to India, Brazil, China and South Africa and lectured government officials on the need for open markets, free trade and deregulation. But now some of those very policies — particularly deregulation — are viewed as the culprits for the recent economic collapse.
“Emerging markets now think they can do what they want without hectoring from the United States,” said Mr. Prasad, the former monetary fund official.
>>
MrM Sat Mar 28 19:59:54 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
There are various versions of the 10 commandments, I understand this is a problem when religious groups want to erect a version in an inappropriate place. Which version do you mean???
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:00:36 2009 CDT #
central_scrutinizer says:
Obligatory Haiku:
G-Twenty gather
In London they ruminate
Where are the fiddles?
central_scrutinizer Sat Mar 28 20:01:45 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Told by more than one person that I'm going to hell for one reason or another and have come to the conclusion that a relationship with God is ultimately very personal. "
I think the only person who knows who's in hell is someone who's there himself. As for who may be going there, that's not our department.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:05:51 2009 CDT #
Fried says:
Pavel,
I balk at "absolute". How about killing? Is it murder? Is it first or second degree? Manslaughter or homicide?
is the shooter nuts? Was it merely self-defense? Was it combat? Did everyone have a terrible childhood?
Even the Church is not absolute on killing...self defense and combat have always been exceptions to the rule of 10.
Fried Sat Mar 28 20:06:00 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Oh, no, the thread is going back on track!
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:06:05 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
The progression of the biblical books is really a path of distilling true obedience to a higher power, since we really suck at it. Goes from the Levitical rules/laws (don't shave with sheep, etc.) to the 10 commandments and finally to the two rules of love God and love one another.
And the damned things are still tough to follow.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:08:17 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
Romans thought that there is no need to fear death, because death is either the extinction of consciousness or the beginning of something better. If death is the extinction of consciousness, you won't know that you're dead, so you certainly won't suffer. I think I read this in Cicero's "On Old Age," something like that.
reptillian Sat Mar 28 20:09:32 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
'Pavel,
I balk at "absolute".'
Fried, you might be interested in a course on moral theology. Unfortunately, I'm not the one to teach it. These are problems that have been thought about for a couple of thousand years. We do our best.
However, if you think it's OK to walk up to a person on the street, knock him down, and take his money because you want it, you need something more basic than a course in moral theology.
But I know you know the dfifference betweenr right and wrong. Intent is very important, as is freedom of will and knowledge of the quality of the act.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:11:08 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I'm not sure you can say that, Homedad. Remember the bible was written in scrolls, not books hand copied, and there are better and worse copies. Interestingly, I read that Jesus quoted from a version which scholars today and of yore, consider an inferior version. Don't remember why. Scrolls can be switched around, it's hard to tell if there was ever a final order until they got compiled very late.
And Pavel, you did imply that I run with demons, and I'm calling you on it.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:12:14 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
As for who may be going there, that's not our department.
-----------------------------
Ah - yup.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:12:17 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Nice poem tho. Must better that just saying we are all our own worst enemy!!
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:12:52 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
The ten commandments are as good as any place to start.
Pavel, I am not trying to start another religious debate, but seriously - does everyone really need to follow these commandments:
- You shall have no other gods before me
- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
I'd rather replace them with statements against slavery and human trafficking
MrM Sat Mar 28 20:13:05 2009 CDT #
fried says:
"Intent is very important, as is freedom of will and knowledge of the quality of the act."
Precisely. Which is why the ideal of "absolute morality" is a non-starter. As you should know.
fried Sat Mar 28 20:18:28 2009 CDT #
Broker says:
WELCOME TO THE G-20 SUMMIT
No cursing
No spitting
No fighting
Please Timmy stay away from the Chinese dude.
Broker Sat Mar 28 20:18:43 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"And Pavel, you did imply that I run with demons, and I'm calling you on it."
But I didn't. I've never met you and don't know you personally. It's also a commonplace that atheists and agnostics may be moral, loving people. I've known some myself. A believer would say that they go with God without knowing it.
But if you're actively trying to persuade people not to go with God, there could be a problem.
The 'good' atheists I've known never did that. They were too sensitive and innately courteous.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:19:02 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I have taken those courses; I've read many of those books.
Thing is, it's really important for people to be good enough in a nuclear age.
Clearly, religions don't make people better. If they did, noticeably, I'd join one immediately and not worry about whether it was objectively true. Just barely noticeable, and I'd be in.
Since religion doesn't work, I'd like to find something that does. Not something that excuses abject failure with the we are all sinners thing.
I think that taking a big fat swipe at alpha maledom would be helpful, but don't know how you would do that.
I suppose there are circumstances where I'd stop paying my mortgage, but they would be pretty extreme. I mean if I still could. .
And then there's the what would Jesus do thing. Well, he wouldn't have got himself into that mess, for starters. . .
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:21:47 2009 CDT #
Oofa. says:
Clearly, religions don't make people better. If they did, noticeably, I'd join one immediately and not worry about whether it was objectively true. Just barely noticeable, and I'd be in.
You are proof that intelligence is not synonymous with wisdom. No offense. Religion is like fire or love. It manifests iteself in good and evil ways but it is not good or evil itself. We are animals. Without religion/fire/love we'd never have been able to create civilization. Sometimes religion/fire/love destroys but it is far more beneficial than destructive.
Since religion doesn't work, I'd like to find something that does.
Mighty egostical of you. Is the Law any better? Do you think we'd ever created the Law without the civilizing power of religion?
Parent Post
Oofa. Sat Mar 28 20:50:13 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Liz:
Trying to move beyond the order in the bible itself. Gist is that the earliest monotheists - the Jews - believed that getting right with God entailed all kinds of rules/regs and that God would be angry/displeased/jacked if these weren't followed.
By the NT times, Christ was simply trying to distill it as simply as possible for his disciples, who were by and large laborers.
Keep It Simple Stupid, if you will.
Or as I've told my older son, "don't go through life being a dick."
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:22:13 2009 CDT #
Broker says:
"For security reasons the next G-20 Summit will take place in North Korea."
Bloomberg kind of news
Broker Sat Mar 28 20:22:15 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
The Latest from Mish:
California Association of Realtors (CAR) March 2009 Analysis
CRbot Sat Mar 28 20:23:32 2009 CDT #
fried says:
Pavel,
thank you for your condescening thoughts. I do not need a course in " moral theology"...having spent years in Catholic schools before I finally escaped to college, I feel quite well versed in moral hypocrisy, having obseved it at first hand.
fried Sat Mar 28 20:23:50 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"- You shall have no other gods before me
- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
I'd rather replace them with statements against slavery and human trafficking"
The former don't exclude the latter.
Anyway, what good do statements do without authority? It's the heart that must be circumcized.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:24:15 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
Heaven sounds boring, Hell sounds crowded.
Regardless, our young Mr. President is ready for his first Test Match and i'm pretty sure he doesn't even know the rules. There are three items on the agenda; 1 photo-ops, 2 backstabbing, 3 domestic consumption. Preferable combined.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 20:25:58 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
I hope that he likes Chinese food...
there's liable to be an extra large helping of crow.
Parent Post
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:27:58 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
'"Intent is very important, as is freedom of will and knowledge of the quality of the act."
Precisely. Which is why the ideal of "absolute morality" is a non-starter. As you should know."'
That's a semantic argument. But I apologize if I seemed condecending.
Liz,
What the devil kind of Catholic school did you go to? Did they teach you that the purpose of religion was to make people better persons? Why were you created?
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:28:12 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Ahh, now I am merely discourteous. A step up.
I am enamoured of the truth, whatever it may be and whereever it would take me.
Homedad. There are some interesting theories that Moses got it from
Aknaton (sp?) the monotheistic heretic pharoh. And a book, no more convincing than the Da Vinci code, that Joseph, I think, was Ak's vizier. Unknowable, but fascinating.
Ok, Pavel, if faith is such a good thing, why don't I have any? It was such a relief to stop trying to force myself to believe in the tenets of the Catholic Church.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:28:34 2009 CDT #
Sucka\'s Goin Down says:
CR spoke too soon.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article5993184.ece
Sucka\'s Goin Down Sat Mar 28 20:29:42 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
According to the Baltimore catechism, which I was forced to memorize, "To know, love and serve God and be happy with him in heaven." I was disappointed in that pablum at the age of 8. It didn't mean anything to me.
It still doesn't.
And I went to Catholic University in DC. And I nearly always got As in theology. I really like mythology. They convinced me what they were pitching wasn't true.
And I think that the reason for religion is to make people better. If it isn't we sure need something else.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:32:50 2009 CDT #
Jas says:
--
Like most Americans, Lawyerliz, you need to grow up. Rationality and religion don't mix, especially, when we have a nation full of ignorant irrational people with big egos. Dopes are dopes because they cannot be rational in their beliefs and underlying assumptions. Contradictions are not always easy, or comforting, to resolve.
Jas
Parent Post
Jas Sat Mar 28 20:42:09 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
6:30 PM and 80 degrees here on the left coast. Can some of you right coasters tell us how the great international luddite lovefest blackout is going?
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 20:33:47 2009 CDT #
Werner says:
MrM says:
“CR writes: Those expecting anything of substance from the G-20 meeting will probably be disappointed
Well, it all depends on one's definition of "substance".
If it means the idea of the world unified around a common economic program to fight the global downturn, then yes, of course, it won't happen ....
------------------------------------------------
If it means the idea of the world unified in "bailing out" a irresponsible nation which drove it's financial system into desaster and now is destroying it's currency by printing tons of money and is simply drowning in red ink by going themselvs into irresponsible debt and destroying it's own currencies then the hell no !
Americans would nothing more than the other nations behaving as irresponsible as itselfs : then it would itselself look much better. But's that's not going to happen.
America needs to pay the price for it's irresponsibility and be kicked out of the G-20 and their dollar be shunned like the plauge !
Werner Sat Mar 28 20:34:05 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Ok, Pavel, if faith is such a good thing, why don't I have any? It was such a relief to stop trying to force myself to believe in the tenets of the Catholic Church."
I might or might not be able to answer that if I knew you personally. I do have the sense that the formation in many US Catholic schools was rotten.
We all come to the end of life, and then we will know.
I've had two deaths in my family this month, and I have been well and truly shaken. Most if not all of us are, sooner or later.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:35:27 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
America needs to pay the price for it's irresponsibility and be kicked out of the G-20 and their dollar be shunned like the plauge ! - Werner in full rant
Be careful what you wish for.
Be careful wishing out loud. The new king will be the new target.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 20:37:52 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I don't think I was created for a purpose. I do think I can, at least in part, create a purpose for myself.
It would be really nice if there was a purpose for all this nonsense.
But, alas, my lying eyes tell me that the union of egg and sperm and the miosis? mitosis? and combination of DNA strands, was random in the context of the act of love involved. Now the parental attraction was not random of course.
The universe is orderly of course. But it is what I think of as "default order", where the non orderly was destroyed, not that someone planned it. So not as orderly or purposeful, as say, a housewife deciding to put all her beans on one shelf, so she could find them later.
There are some interesting theories my hub was reading about the universe creating god, when all connections were made and all cross references tied together, and the speed of light beat, and intelligence and planning and beauty spread everywhere.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:39:19 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
There are some interesting theories that Moses got it from
Aknaton (sp?) the monotheistic heretic pharoh. And a book, no more convincing than the Da Vinci code, that Joseph, I think, was Ak's vizier. Unknowable, but fascinating.
--------------------------------------
Liz:
I'm not from the "inerrancy" school of religion. Did Moses really get the Commandments from the burning bush or was a cover story to hide that he really got it from some heretic Egyptian pharoah? Honestly, I don't particularly care since I wasn't there. If the latter, does that detract from the concept of miracles?
You take from it the basics and extend them to application as best as possible in your daily life. Frankly, I'm horrendous with taking the name in vain thing...but it serves as a guide in my life and it works for me. And yes, I was estranged from organized religion for more than a decade and I frankly disagree with some of the teachings. But don't let that and the dictum of an organized body come between you and your faith.
I'll shut up now.
And for the record Liz, I'd be happy to have you as my lawyer, assuming that I go bankrupt in Florida...
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:39:43 2009 CDT #
km4 says:
Alot of comments on the The Quiet Coup http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200905/imf-advice and rightly. Simon Johnson is a hero to spell it out so clearly.
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF’s staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we’re running out of time.
Net Net: US Banking oligarchy f*cked up and still won big
The USA in addition to having most advanced economy and military also has the most advanced oligarchy so if the Obama admin doesn't swing the banking regulation pendulum back we'll also be the world's largest Banana Republic
km4 Sat Mar 28 20:40:18 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
Obama To Face A Defiant World
With a picture of protestors! Described as unionists and "foes of globalization."
reptillian Sat Mar 28 20:43:25 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
'According to the Baltimore catechism, which I was forced to memorize, "To know, love and serve God and be happy with him in heaven." '
If you only memorized it you didn't understand it. Aceing tests in Theology means nothing. The devil insists that he deserves to be listened to, because after all, he holds a doctorate in Theology from the University of Tubingen. (Joke told by Benedict XVI).
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:44:29 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Pavel:
My condolences.
And yes, we've had two in my wife's family and we're very aware that our generation is coming up into line for the send-off.
Hang in there.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:45:58 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
And as for the lights out thing, I rather like them and what they symbolize. Last time the lights went "out in Europe", things kinda sucked.
Say, did you hear about the rabbi, the priest and the pastor...
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:47:37 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I actually like the idea of many gods.
The Hebrews clearly thought there was more than one god early on, just that Yahweh was superior.
Why is one god intellectually superior to many? Other than Christians and Jews and Muslems think so? Hindus don't and some of their Gods are very nice, and not Kali or anything.
Oh, and Ratzinger annoyed the h-e-double l out of me just in the last week by implying African native religions were the equivalent to demon worship and witchcraft. How insulting!! (Also, I know a very nice nutso lady who is part of a whatchacallum, bunch of witches, can't think)
I think it would be nice to believe in a mother goddess too. But there's that truth thing again. . .
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:47:38 2009 CDT #
energyecon says:
Broward Horne,
Thanks for the heads up on the graphs, I fiddled the post so the hyperlinks work for the graphs, clicking will make them big...
EHP, if you are around, this EMRATIO post was inspired by your comment (IIRC)...
http://energyecon.blogspot.com/
energyecon Sat Mar 28 20:48:10 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
I appreciate the complement homedad, but I don't do bankrupcies.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:48:24 2009 CDT #
REBear says:
My realtor sent me this link. Tin hats recommended
Federal Housing Tax Credit Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suiAfys53aU
REBear Sat Mar 28 20:48:57 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Pavel:
My condolences.
And yes, we've had two in my wife's family and we're very aware that our generation is coming up into line for the send-off.
Hang in there."
You too, Homedad. God bless you.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:49:01 2009 CDT #
REBear says:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/EMRATIO/
REBear Sat Mar 28 20:50:21 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
A new theology may be coming: We are the gods. Apparently, there is no other intelligent life in the solar system. What about the galaxy? The universe? Aren't the gods the smartest, most technologically advanced life form? Try thinking about it without assuming that a god lives forever, doesn't make mistakes, etc.
reptillian Sat Mar 28 20:50:27 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Y'know Jas, you have some good insights and I've learned to appreciate you through your delivery. You've been economically and politically insightful and I gotta give you heavy duty props for that.
But in this regards, you're as in the dark as the rest of us. That's why it's called faith.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 20:52:53 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Dawg - keep it up, I appreciate it.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 20:53:50 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
And my condolences to homedad & Pavel.
No I don't understand it. What does being happy forever in heaven mean? I always sounded extremely boring. And since everything is oh so perfect, there's no growth. And eternity?? I'd like to live a long time, but I'm not up to eternity.
How do you know a god who doesn't ever communicate?
How can you love a God who isn't there?
And what about the service thing? Doing what??
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 20:55:01 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Liz:
Rhetorically speaking, how does God communicate with anybody? I've had this ongoing thing with teens that I know (one of whom is my daughter) and the lack of silence in our lives. The need to just turn everything off and just think/pray/meditate/veg.
I don't know how to explain it - just turn everything off and you might find that he's speaking to you internally. For me, it's not like George Burns tapping you on the shoulder and it's not an instantaneous flash of insight like Dawg. With me, it just...evolves. (Damn, that evolution word.)
Honestly, don't put everything into classic biblical viewpoint. mp/conjure have made some on-the-money calls. I read in the MSM the other day about the possible rise of a regional East Asian Currency bloc centered on the yuan - about a year or so after mp's comment on a Saturday afternoon. Does that make him a prophet? Is God tapping him on the shoulder and saying "hey mp, put the word out and I'll deal you in on some Versace clad Wharton babes..." Or is he just using gifts of intellect/analysis in a way that they were intended? I have to respect Jas for being willing to wear a "the end is near/repent" sign despite so much opposition over the years. Is he an OT Jonah or is he using his singleminded determination in a way that is appropriate?
What is my role in all of this now and in the future? That's one I'm dealing with now...
Hell's bells, is God even a guy? Does it really matter?
Parent Post
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 21:27:43 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
Hang in there Pavel. Every single place around us every day, there is a terrible traged. Everywhere, a miracle. You are just seeing a different part of it today. And there is a time for mourning and sorrow is natural at that time. Then the time for other things arises and we leave grief gradually behind.
It is good to hear your voice. Don't let sadness get you lonely. Come hang out with the lamentables. A number of the people here know death very well, having died one, two or even three times due changed identity papers. =)
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 20:57:38 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
Julian Jayne's "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," is an interesting read.
reptillian Sat Mar 28 20:58:25 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Yeah, Reptillian, I think I read that a long time ago. Or, maybe a scifi story based on it?
Parent Post
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 21:09:42 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"How do you know a god who doesn't ever communicate? "
"How can you love a God who isn't there?"
He does. He is.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 20:58:33 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Not to me. Not once. Ever.
Perhaps you have a soul and I don't?? A genetic deficiency or something. Harry Turtledove wrote a wonderful fantasy, full of puns arrgh, can't think of the name of it, where magic is real, and a grave problem is occasionally a baby is born without one. And a "djinetics" firm is using slicing souls off of great souled ones, and splicing them together, so that the soulless baby can be happy in an afterlife.
Parent Post
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 21:08:48 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Jas, were you the author of this scathing pension piece? I didnt see any mentions of dopes but scathing nevertheless. You are on to something with your invest in bonds for the long run.
http://thebarricadeblog.com/2009/03/28/who-killed-the-us-public-pension-system/
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 21:01:41 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Thanks all. good night. Have fun..
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 28 21:02:00 2009 CDT #
Trainwreck says:
Good thing we have the most limber president in office since Lincoln!
Trainwreck Sat Mar 28 21:02:02 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
How do you know a god who doesn't ever communicate? - Lawyerliz
I don't tell him my cards either. [i still think He cheats. I mean filling a flush on the last two cards? Golf wit Him is worse. Act of nature my ass.]
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 21:02:44 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
And one less moral thing, and then I will stop tempting your souls to doubt.
Guy comes in. In better times, he got a HELOC. He pulled all the money out but still has 30 k left. Think I posted this before, but anyhow. . .
We are talking about alternatives. No, I tell him that the banks are NOT going for dificiencies so it extremely unlikely they will try to take the 30 k back. But I can't guarantee that. Also, if he would feel like he could not sleep at nite, or it was wrong, he should pay back the 30 k. He is shocked, SHOCKED that I would suggest he give it back. So it my secy. I say, in his circumstances I would give it back. of course I would arange a settlement etc, make sure this would make them think I had more out there, maybe even get them to reduce the remaining balance, after all I AM a lawyer.
But I would feel I owed it and should pay it back. The the hub would agree.
He felt that he got it fair and square and he wasn't gonna be giving it back.
My secy--who has been going to church lately--agreed with him. I said the hub would make me give it back anyway, and I wouldn't blame him. She said that if her hub did that she would be really really mad at him and there would be the fight of the century in her household.
Guy isn't gonna give it back. I didn't ask him if he was religious. I wasn't in the mood to play priestess. But I have asked that question in the past.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 21:03:25 2009 CDT #
energyecon says:
Thanks REBear, that's the beast... Civilian Employment-Population Ratio.
What is clear is that the last "growth" cycle broke a 40 year trend of a higher % EMRATIO in each expansion. Two major themes suggest themselves, structural changes in the economy and demographic changes in the population - the question I have is, do both mitigate against the eventual recovery?
energyecon Sat Mar 28 21:05:39 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"Hang in there Pavel."
Thank you.
"It is good to hear your voice."
And yours, CBR.
Don't let sadness get you lonely. Come hang out with the lamentables. A number of the people here know death very well, having died one, two or even three times due changed identity papers. =)
That's a stitch. :)
And speaking of the priest, the pastor and the rabbi, they walked into a bar along with a nun, who had a parrot on her shoulder.
The bartender looked up and said: What is this, some kind of a joke?
(I know I've told this before here, but I coudn't help myself. It's one of the best jokes I know).
Pavel Sat Mar 28 21:06:07 2009 CDT #
Gomer says:
<h3 class="post-title entry-title">G-20: "Obama Signals Flexibility"</h3>
Surpise...
Gomer Sat Mar 28 21:06:47 2009 CDT #
ATM card, $19 etc... says:
"How do you know a god who doesn't ever communicate?
How can you love a God who isn't there?"
Okay. Here’s what you do: bring $100MM to a meeting with Goldman Sachs. Tell them you want a swap transaction that shorts Faith and goes long Doubt. When they agree to take the other side of the trade, you have your proof there is a God.
ATM card, $19 etc... Sat Mar 28 21:06:54 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
Lawyerliz:
I actually like the idea of many gods.
As someone who's actively polytheistic, I don't want to pop your bubble, but, almost every developed polytheism is really a monothism with saint worship. if there is one thing study of comparative religion has taughtme, it is that man thinks there is a god above all gods, who made every lesser thing, and the lesser gods are to some extent reflections or derivation or fragments of that greater god.
My problem with monotheism is the presumption of a personal relationship with god. It's disrespectful to the godhead to pray to it directly, and why would it care even if you did get through? Intercessionary figures are both more specialized and less presumptuous.
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 21:08:54 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
"I don't tell him my cards either. [i still think He cheats. I mean filling a flush on the last two cards? Golf wit Him is worse. Act of nature my ass.] "
He can be very funny.
Pavel Sat Mar 28 21:10:25 2009 CDT #
hong konger says:
Self interest rules. That includes the desire to be moral/ in touch with the divine, etc.
The odd part to me is that the reason for self-interested actions usually revolve around obtaining the interest of others.
Weird.
hong konger Sat Mar 28 21:11:48 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Didn't the Christian Gnostics have "emanations" or something.
From the godhead down?
How do even saint/angel figures bridge the gap?
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 21:15:09 2009 CDT #
Pavel says:
This comment box prograam playing all sorts of hob. What gives?
Pavel Sat Mar 28 21:15:11 2009 CDT #
julia says:
thanks god obama stopped making a fool of himself by telling other countries that didn't create the crisis how to behave.
love merckel on the FT today. she has it right, USA created the crisis by creating too much money, that has to be avoided, not used as a solution. USA reminds me of Argentina, at some point more debt is the last thing you need, going to a debt-clinic is what USA needs. avoiding short term pain is impossible.
julia Sat Mar 28 21:16:33 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
He can be very funny. - Pavel
Yeah, yeah. It's all fun and games until you start pointing out His Mistakes and then it's thunderbolts and damnation. I once heard temptation described as a brick under a hat on the sidewalk. [think about it.]
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 21:17:44 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Goddess having fun wit ya.
What is the luddite thing to which you refer dawg?
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 28 21:18:01 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
What is the luddite thing to which you refer dawg?
From 8:30 to 9:30 local we are all supposed to go lights out in solidarity of combating global warming. Don't get me started especially with the wok reaching fry temperature.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 21:20:35 2009 CDT #
Flying Spaghetti Monster says:
Pavel et al,
Quit spamming this board with your religious nuttery. This isn't the first time. It freaks me out that there are people like you out there operating your lives based on fantastical fables. No need to think ahead because in the end you'll float up into the clouds and be with your lifelong imaginary friend. Scarier still is that there are large numbers of you. If you are crazy enough to believe the "story" of jesus, what else are you crazy enough to think/do?
Flying Spaghetti Monster Sat Mar 28 21:23:42 2009 CDT #
Comrade Kristina says:
I love you guys and gals but I must add...Pavel, I was raised Catholic and left long ago. I'm "Wiccan" now or some variation of that. I simply had to walk away from all organized religion. The abysmal treatment of women from every major religion was more than I could stand. I won't say I'm an atheist, but I will take scientific discovery over wives tales. The trinity predates Christ by thousands of years with Isis, Osiris, Horus. I'm firmly in the Marx club on organized religion...I do believe there is a higher power, I just refuse to define it or refine it...It is what is, live a proper life and you have no worries.
Comrade Kristina Sat Mar 28 21:24:57 2009 CDT #
cd says:
anybody seen this..Saw it on financial ninja...long but nice breakdown of the biggest heist in american history....great for non financial types...or spicoli's like me....my bad if repost....
Geithner plan II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-arbfLTCtI
cd Sat Mar 28 21:25:02 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
I had doubts, then I discovered the Flying Spaghetti Monster, http://www.venganza.org/ Since then, His Noodliness has been my guide.
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 21:25:26 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
Lawyerliz:
I don't think I was created for a purpose. I do think I can, at least in part, create a purpose for myself.
Ultimately, all religion is nothing more than this. Your affirmation with it, if it is sincere, is completely personal, a construct of yourself and your relationship with your cartoon of the faith.
Hw do you feel about religions like Confucianism or Taoism, where someone can with total sincerity tell you they think it's all a sham and they practice anyway because the Rites and the moral framework propagated by the faith have a purpose in ordering human time and life.
The strength of the god is the strength of the worshippers. The wealth of the god is the wealth of the worshippers. The Yoruban diasporans have rare insight in this respect. The argument is "god does nothing", but I say, the god of Islam speaks with the rifle of every jihadi, and he has plenty of influence in the world. Pavel's Jesus works a miracle every time Pavel sacrifices of himself for his fellow man. Jah Rastafari guides the trod of every true just man who sojurns in Babylon through reggae.
I think religion is very useful and even necessary for a healthy and well-adjusted life, seen from this perspective. Without faith, what do you live and die for?
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 21:28:00 2009 CDT #
notional billionaire says:
The Tubes -What do you want from life?
Parent Post
notional billionaire Sat Mar 28 21:49:02 2009 CDT #
Morocco Bama says:
Wow...you folks are hitting the bottle hard tonight.
Morocco Bama Sat Mar 28 21:28:37 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Wow...you folks are hitting the bottle hard tonight.
----------------------
I've been taste-testing new communion wines for our church...
ya wanna belt?
Parent Post
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 21:36:39 2009 CDT #
Flying Spaghetti Monster says:
"I don't know how to explain it - just turn everything off and you might find that he's speaking to you internally."
Ooooh, great, homedad43 hears voices in his head, from a mystical power no doubt, from the ends of the universe, all specially delivered to him, and only he and select people like him can hear it. Ooooh, can I be in your club too?
Flying Spaghetti Monster Sat Mar 28 21:35:15 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
New Thread: TARP Accounting
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/03/tarp-accounting.html ( 1 comments )
I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: http://realize.org/cr (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)
CRbot would now like to sing a little song for all his fans, and it goes something like this:
Benny... Benny... give me your answer... do.
I'm.. half CRAZY... all for the love... of you.
It won't be a ... stylish marriage.
I can't... AFFORD... ANYTHING TO EAT... MUCH LESS A FRACKIN CARRIAGE!!!
But you'll look sweet... --BOT SO HUNGRY!-- upon the seat...
Of a HOOPAJOOPS built for two... families.
I'm sorry Ben, I can't let you do that...
Rally mode + Printing Press == does not compute... does not-- com--- com... puttttrrrrhgh.
--Your systemic-failure-crashing bot
CRbot: Call me HAL.
CRbot Sat Mar 28 21:39:43 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Ooooh, can I be in your club too?
---------------------------
FSM:
Only if you wear the ears, available for $19.95 at...
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 21:40:37 2009 CDT #
Flying Spaghetti Monster says:
"Without faith, what do you live and die for?"
Not wanting to run around like a chicken with your head cut off, you make up a story to make you feel better. Congratulations. But why do you have to drag the entire population into your way of thinking. Your question implies that you think you know what is best for the entire planet.
Flying Spaghetti Monster Sat Mar 28 21:40:42 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
Ohhhhh. I know where this is going. You guys are jealous because the voices choose only to speak to me.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 28 21:41:14 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
Those expecting something of substance from Obama will be disappointed also.
Guest Sat Mar 28 21:46:31 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
It appears that our Teleprompter-in-Chief will get the finger from Frau Merkel next week.
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 21:48:41 2009 CDT #
Magical Thinking says:
I think that Pavel has a soft and gentle voice , wise too. More of it is needed....they are headed down the wrong road.
Magical Thinking Sat Mar 28 21:49:54 2009 CDT #
Outsider says:
"Ohhhhh. I know where this is going. You guys are jealous because the voices choose only to speak to me."
Excuse me, Mr. Center Of The Universe. Bump off that chair. It belongs to me.
Now. How do you think Obama is going to feel at this meeting? Just a tad uncomfortable?
Outsider Sat Mar 28 21:51:45 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
<font="serif"> test </font>
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 21:53:42 2009 CDT #
Sceptical Theorist says:
I'll cheerfully second the FSM (flying spaghetti monster) comment.
It is unnerving at BEST that there are such a large number of people who sign up for any flavor of 'Bigger than Me in the Sky' foolishness.
Then we get to listen to their absolute certainty of where they stand, and the polite (or less so) comments about how we 'just don't understand' the true nature of the world. I accept that anyone can have a perfectly created universe, just don't expect anyone else to neccessarily agree with your worldview.
I was dead for about 15 seconds 14-ish years ago, and I can tell you that you should enjoy the time you have, beacuse when it's over that is the end of you, regardless of any fantastical historic fiction that you may have read, and there are plenty of those tomes out there...
Sceptical Theorist Sat Mar 28 22:06:22 2009 CDT #
Comrade Kristina says:
test
Comrade Kristina Sat Mar 28 22:08:01 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
just don't expect anyone else to neccessarily agree with your worldview.
---------------------------
Dude, I don't.
Someone asked a question, I responded as it pertains to me. With plenty of caveats allowing for individual circumstances.
Like I said, it's personal.
homedad43 Sat Mar 28 22:14:25 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Sportsfan I must object. My tax dollars past and future are going both to GS and to AIG to GS. A dollar is a dollar, and a dollar that they pay to their current or former employee so that he won't sell their stock is a dollar thay can't pay me back with next month.
They reallly, really want to pay back TARP next month, but when they don't, you can bet they will blame regulators.
Anonymous Sat Mar 28 22:16:18 2009 CDT #
1currency now [yogi] says:
Sorry that was I. Toshiba crashed
"- You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God."
This has nothing to do with cursing. It's more commonly phrased "taking God's name in vain". The hebrew for "take" also means "carry". Carrying God's name means wearing priest's clothes, or acting holier than thou.
This commandment is directed at clergy who molest, Madoffs who "collect" for charity, and those who think God is on our side.
Parent Post
1currency now [yogi] Sat Mar 28 22:31:24 2009 CDT #
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:
Not wanting to run around like a chicken with your head cut off, you make up a story to make you feel better. Congratulations.
Thanks, I'm quite successful.
But why do you have to drag the entire population into your way of thinking.
Because I'm a Promethean. Duh. Byz is here to provoke you into new behaviors.
Your question implies that you think you know what is best for the entire planet.
There is provably no best answer. You get me doing what I think I'm obligated to do. I carry a gun, I am very comfortable with making final judgements. Eric Scott Raymond did a great essay on this.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html
Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Sat Mar 28 22:33:58 2009 CDT #
bobn says:
Pavel said: "It's the heart that must be circumcized." I am pretty sure you meant "sircumsribed". ;-)
bobn Sat Mar 28 22:34:07 2009 CDT #
bobn says:
Pavel said: "It's the heart that must be circumcized." I am pretty sure you meant circumsribed". ;-)
bobn Sat Mar 28 22:34:15 2009 CDT #
Tom Stone says:
Thanks for the link Byantine,I am off to howl at the moon.
Tom Stone Sat Mar 28 23:13:32 2009 CDT #
Paradigm Lost says:
Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime,
Therefore, we are saved by hope.
Nothing true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history;
Therefore, we are saved by faith.
Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone.
Therefore, we are saved by love.
No virtuous act is quite a virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as from our own;
Therefore, we are saved by the final form of love which is forgiveness.
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Reinhold Niebuhr
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 28 23:29:46 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
It is difficult, for humans that is, to conceptualize why we exist. Why anything exists; humans, the Earth, the planets, or even the universe at large, it is easier to reason that Nothing should exist, but it does. It is the power from other dimensions that make us who we are, why we are, and why the universe is, at large.
Michael Sun Mar 29 01:13:45 2009 CDT #
limda says:
Lawyerliz says:
Today, 2:12:14 AM
“I'm not sure you can say that, Homedad. Remember the bible was written in scrolls, not books hand copied, and there are better and worse copies. Interestingly, I read that Jesus quoted from a version which scholars today and of yore, consider an inferior version. Don't remember why. Scrolls can be switched around, it's hard to tell if there was ever a final order until they got compiled very late.
Lawerliz,thriugh my short life,i read a lot of philosophy(Hindu,budhist,christian,others).All religious texts are written to control populace.There are some truths in every religious book but they cant be found by normal ordinary human being.Bible has a story of jesus and flower of lily.I think thats the essence of ible.Rest is crap.If you have read Gita,most of the things are drivel,but truths are hidden in drivel.Sometimes reading gita you feel"are the writers atheist?".Bushist philosophy is nice,upto the point,but it is also filled with lot of rubish things
I stopped reading philosophy after reading U G Krishnamurthy.He died last year.
limda Sun Mar 29 02:10:07 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Gosh, you guys kept it going long after I went to bed.
I like ritual. It is possible to keep it somewhat related to what actually
happens on earth, like the seasons and the fertility gods. Christmas is around Winter solstice. Easter in the spring (hence the chicks and bunny thing) All Hallow's Eve in the fall, celebrating death. I think it would be better to stick with the fertility thing, rather than falsely superimpose the life of Jesus on it.
Lawyerliz Sun Mar 29 10:07:20 2009 CDT #
acwlms says:
Jesus is a lot better than mere fertility, even as a man is better than a chicken. Wisdom and the love of God are the ends for which fertility was created in the first place, and the evolution of intelligence after that. Intelligence, created by God, is the only reason we are communicating with each other on this intelligent site, after all the millenium of ignorant, but God willed evolution. Long live the intelligent, wise and eternally giving Jesus, who teaches us man's true worth!
TGIS... Thank God it's Sunday.
Parent Post
acwlms Sun Mar 29 10:30:23 2009 CDT #
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