Comments for "Chrysler Pier Loans Still Haunting Banks"

CRbot says:

This comment thread has been CRC-IZED by yagij (CRbot helped a little).

http://realize.org/cr/crcizer/phpCRCo.php?path=%2F4605328425972126987&ord=asc&csslayout=reg&topic=Chrysler+Pier+Loans+Still+Haunting+Banks

And for the stubborn old-timers... it's also been HALO-IZED by CRbot.

http://realize.org/cr/halokit.php?halourl=http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/4605328425972126987

CRbot Fri Apr 3 15:00:53 2009 CDT #

Tom Stone says:

Wow a choice of nothing or Zilch!

Tom Stone Fri Apr 3 15:01:14 2009 CDT #

dryfly says:

Banks need to look at the bright side - it isn't a pier loan it's an opportunity to collect a bailout.

dryfly Fri Apr 3 15:02:42 2009 CDT #

Mad Mullah says:

What you call a Pier Loan, I would call bad judgement.

Mad Mullah Fri Apr 3 15:04:46 2009 CDT #

giacutter says:

Insert obligatory long walk joke here.

giacutter Fri Apr 3 15:05:06 2009 CDT #

Believer Jeff says:

Here's what you do. Get some 22's and a fake Bentley grill to dress up that Chrysler POS. Its bound to be worth at least 60% at that point.

Believer Jeff Fri Apr 3 15:07:56 2009 CDT #

bearly says:

Looks like this is the kitchen sink quarter... again.

bearly Fri Apr 3 15:09:54 2009 CDT #

TCA says:

Anybody trading this market is either an insider or will soon be broke.

TCA Fri Apr 3 15:10:56 2009 CDT #

Jamie says:

kitche sink inventories are already stuffed full

Jamie Fri Apr 3 15:11:39 2009 CDT #

Comrade Elmer Fudd says:

goldman makes all the smart moves. maybe they should run the country.

oh, yeah

Comrade Elmer Fudd Fri Apr 3 15:12:00 2009 CDT #

Br\'er Dawg says:

Hey man, I'll give you these TWO $5000 kittens for your ONE $15,000 puppy!

Br\'er Dawg Fri Apr 3 15:12:28 2009 CDT #

Mr. Beach says:

Wow. SRS got smoked today.

Alternatively, have a look at the performance of IYR:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=iyr

What lit a fire underneath the Real Estate index? Is the real estate situation 9% better today than yesterday?

Mr. Beach Fri Apr 3 15:13:21 2009 CDT #

Chicago Dude says:

Wow. SRS got smoked today.

It's not a one-day thing. I don't know what's going on with it, but it's not looking good. Or logical.

Parent Post

Chicago Dude Fri Apr 3 15:18:56 2009 CDT #

nades says:

"It's not a one-day thing. " CD

It is a one day thing. Or at least it should be. These double inverses only track for 1 day. Stay and play a while and you get whittled down.....

Parent Post

nades Fri Apr 3 15:23:28 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

If you only hold these things for a day, how do you avoid getting eaten alive by commissions?

Parent Post

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:49:51 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Mr Beach. One word containment!

BA WAH AHAHAHHAHAH

Parent Post

nades Fri Apr 3 15:19:55 2009 CDT #

reptillian says:

Banks are taking a long walk on a short pier?

reptillian Fri Apr 3 15:13:37 2009 CDT #

hc says:

RE is coming back this year, or soon; don’t doubt it.
With the new FASB mark to fantasy ruling, the following changes to key statistics is under way:
1. Banks capital ratio is now fantasy ratio, and will allow them to lend.
2. Banks can now hold onto REOs, indefinitely. There’s no incentive to sell at market. By holding REOs, banks can rate that REO asset at 2007 level. Sure they’ll have to put taxes and maintenance, but that’s going to be like a cost of business to keep 2007-model alive.
3. Similarly, Banks can now DRAGGG ON the NOD and foreclosure process. Expect things like allowing people to stay, semi-permantly (as in for months and years at a time), rent free; without any foreclosure NODs or auctions or what not. Next few months you’ll see a sharp decline in new foreclosures as the banks adapt.
4. Commercial RE (CRE) was going to be a bomb in 2009, because all those commercial loans are due and the market valuation means no bank will refi them. Well no more, we’re not using market valuation anymore, so those model all says these CREs are awesome profits, so there’ll be increased refi of CREs and the crisis averted.
5. With the new model, HELOCs may even be a viable source of credit for consumers now; Those on the margin may find banks offering HELOC now, the home ATM is now open!
6. Ditto to Credit Card ABSs, the model says much better profitability; In fact, there’ll be more solicitations for people to own more cards; coz the model says it’s such good business, plus the customer can use one card to pay off another — further enhancing default rate for their model!
7. The obvious is that all the bank’s financial releases for the rest of 2009 will beat expectation now. So now permabulls have ammunition to say recession is over.
Bears are fighting a losing cause with the deck to heavily stacked against them.
Are these going to be a permanent solution, or actually save us from impending doom? Heck no. It’s the same playbook from Japan that pretty much sealed their fate to the 20 year economic decline. *BUT* it’ll drag everything into SLOW MOTION decline.
Kinda like treating an acute disease that *MAY* kill you, by taking a poison that kills the bacteria and the short term disease problem, but guarantees you will die SLOWLY. We just did that.
I thought I could time the market and buy a house in 2010 or 2011; I can see my folly now. The govt will make it a money losing proposition to own a house for 20 years. The govt will stretch it out so long, so maximum number of people are bearing the housing decline and nobody can “time” and get “out” — in the end you need a place to stay, and that is their trump card.
I think I’m so depressed I’ll go jump off a bridge somewhere now.

hc Fri Apr 3 15:16:08 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

TCA

The action on the large CRE REITs in the past few days is
amazing. Big money coming from somewhere in the face of
horrific numbers for the industry.

Maybe CALPERS felt like they didn't have enough exposure.

12th Percentile Fri Apr 3 15:16:57 2009 CDT #

hc says:

For those wondering why SRS is dying or who will invest in CRE, see my post above.

hc Fri Apr 3 15:19:27 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Ghost Piers. My favorite type!

........................

12th does CALPERS actually buy reits? At their size I would think it would be easier to just owne the assets (buildings) out right. Property management companies are a dime a dozen so to speak....

nades Fri Apr 3 15:20:41 2009 CDT #

poic.v20 says:

"Anybody trading this market is either an insider or will soon be broke."

We have these short squeezes every 6 months or so. Nothing new and it will happen again. It has happened multiple times with CRE as well as home-builders, financials etc.. Big money rotating in to run a sector up and pull the retail bozos again.

It will sell off again soon.

poic.v20 Fri Apr 3 15:21:54 2009 CDT #

TCA says:

12th Percentile,

Come again?

:)

TCA Fri Apr 3 15:21:58 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Hey TCA I thought what 12th said was important! LOL!

And to think I thought CR yanked one of my comments about Geithner looking like Beavis cause it was in poor taste!

JS-Kit Rules ! ! !

Parent Post

nades Fri Apr 3 15:26:02 2009 CDT #

MarketBlogic says:

What is is they say about the first loss being the best loss?

If John Thain was as smart as his reputation, wouldn't he have had Merrill Lynch puking all their CDO junk from the very get-go once he arrived over there?

MarketBlogic Fri Apr 3 15:23:30 2009 CDT #

TCA says:

We have these short squeezes every 6 months or so. Nothing new and it will happen again. It has happened multiple times with CRE as well as home-builders, financials etc.. Big money rotating in to run a sector up and pull the retail bozos again.

It will sell off again soon.

You're absolutely right. Good luck on timing it correctly.

TCA Fri Apr 3 15:24:40 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

From the US embassy:
http://photos.america.gov/maps/amgov/30145/stock_g20.jpg/#popup

EvilHenryPaulson Fri Apr 3 15:25:22 2009 CDT #

poic.v20 says:

How come nobody warns me when my 2x SRS outperforms on the upside due to positive slippage?

poic.v20 Fri Apr 3 15:25:59 2009 CDT #

Mannwich says:

@hc: I dunno about all that. I do know that there are crap loads of newly built CRE space about to open up in the next 1-2 years that's going to only increase supply at the wrong time. How on God's earth are they going to fill all this space with no demand for it? What companies are going to need it? This will take time but SRS will make at least one more big run, possibly many.

Mannwich Fri Apr 3 15:27:31 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

sorry for that. WTF? My first apology comment appears to have been eaten.

I feel like an old Cobol programmer on these new comment systems. Give me some vodka and let me code like a man!

I believe Calpers went big into CREITs last fall.

12th Percentile Fri Apr 3 15:29:23 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Today's market was funny. The inflation trade -- GLD, TIP, OIL/commodities -- didn't really run. The deflation -- TLT, UUP -- didn't really work. I see odd movement in what was green. The sharp rise in treasury yield is curions.

Can someone smarter than I tell me what this trend is saying?

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:30:42 2009 CDT #

poic.v20 says:

"You're absolutely right. Good luck on timing it correctly."

I'm not greedy and am happy with a 10-20% return. I have held SRS through high vix, low vix, high volume, low volume $120 down to $48 and back.

On multiple occassions. It's not easy, it gives you a queasy stomach but I'm in this time at an average of $50 and happy to hold for a few months.

poic.v20 Fri Apr 3 15:31:48 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Anonymous
Tech and Banks (with the story of MTM) in the US
mostly, leaving the US market to invest in emerging market equities. namely Latin America

EvilHenryPaulson Fri Apr 3 15:34:47 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

CALPERS and REITS
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a6bDcdcVLs6g&refer=home

The California Public Employees' Retirement System, already hit with multibillion-dollar real estate losses, invested in more than 100 property companies before their value collapsed in the weeks after Oct. 1.

The largest U.S. public pension fund bought shares of 112 real estate investment trusts in the third quarter with a combined value of about $482 million as of Sept. 30, according to a regulatory filing. The holdings are now valued at about $245 million.

12th Percentile Fri Apr 3 15:35:27 2009 CDT #

TCA says:

On multiple occassions. It's not easy, it gives you a queasy stomach but I'm in this time at an average of $50 and happy to hold for a few months.

An honest question: what happens to these ETFs if the derivatives market melts down?

TCA Fri Apr 3 15:35:39 2009 CDT #

debtinator says:

A jury of their piers? GUILTY!

debtinator Fri Apr 3 15:37:02 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Ask for payment in Dodge Challenger SR/Ts. They might be worth something someday.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:38:40 2009 CDT #

Lucifer says:

True or not?

_________
But President Barack Obama wasn’t in a mood to hear them out. He stopped the conversation and offered a blunt reminder of the public’s reaction to such explanations. “Be careful how you make those statements, gentlemen. The public isn’t buying that.”

“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks.”

The fresh details of the meeting — some never before revealed — come from an account provided to POLITICO by one of the participants. A second source inside the meeting confirmed the details, and two other sources familiar with the meeting offered additional information.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20871.html

Lucifer Fri Apr 3 15:39:57 2009 CDT #

Mannwich says:

@12th Percentile: Which of course means that CALPERS is going to get clobbered again on that stupid position. They're way too early here. It's called "common sense". Not a lot of that anywhere these days but it usually makes an appearance every now and then. They'll take it on the chin at some point on that position. Dumb. Borderline criminal.

Mannwich Fri Apr 3 15:40:57 2009 CDT #

Wisdom Speaker says:

IYR peaked (post-November crash) at 40 in mid-December. It's still off over 25% from there. It still shows a bearish pattern of lower highs and lower lows. What's the big deal?

SRS clearly has a lot of slippage, since it's down over 20% since mid-December! (I realize it isn't the 2x daily inverse of IYR, but that's not the issue...)

Wisdom Speaker Fri Apr 3 15:41:31 2009 CDT #

sdtfs says:

Why did Cereberus need the loan? I thought Daimler paid them to take Chrysler off their hands.
I hope the banks stick to their guns,...dammit, those loans are worth what they say they are, it's ridiculous for them to be expected to give them away! The banks should think about taking over Chrysler immediately and managing the company themselves.

sdtfs Fri Apr 3 15:42:00 2009 CDT #

Yalt says:

I hope the banks stick to their guns,...dammit, those loans are worth what they say they are, it's ridiculous for them to be expected to give them away!

All snark aside, maybe they are...if they hold out long enough they can probably get the government to buy them out at near par through some inscrutable nonrecourse financing deal.

Parent Post

Yalt Fri Apr 3 16:04:22 2009 CDT #

TCA says:

“My administration,” the president added, “is the only thing between you and the pitchforks."

Obama is the mountain lion guarding the fox guarding the henhouse.

TCA Fri Apr 3 15:42:50 2009 CDT #

wtf says:

reptillian says: Banks are taking a long walk on a short pier?

Not to worry: Banksters were made for hanging, not drowning.

wtf Fri Apr 3 15:43:19 2009 CDT #

Wisdom Speaker says:

@Mannwich: "They're way too early here. It's called "common sense". Not a lot of that anywhere these days but it usually makes an appearance every now and then. "

Not where a committee is involved and no one has to take personal responsibility for consequences!

Wisdom Speaker Fri Apr 3 15:43:47 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

"They're way too early here"

Not way too early at all. If you want maximum kickbacks on how you invest pension money, you need to go to the desperate. I live in NY. The guy who ran our pension just got indicted on 145 or so counts.

good luck everyone. I think I'll go to the mall and see how it is thriving.

12th Percentile Fri Apr 3 15:47:33 2009 CDT #

Jus7tme says:

Obama is playing hardball with the automaker bondholders.

But why is he not playing hardball with the bank bindholders?

Jus7tme Fri Apr 3 15:48:45 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

The banks should think about taking over Chrysler immediately and managing the company themselves.

Then Obama could nationalize them both at once... brilliant!

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:49:11 2009 CDT #

Wisdom Speaker says:

What's the over/under on Bank Failure Friday today, when do folks expect the first announcement, and any bets on which states get the honors today?

[ Too bad the crappy comment system (and the change in climate) have driven away so many posters... ]

Wisdom Speaker Fri Apr 3 15:50:48 2009 CDT #

Tim waiting for 2012 says:

Lucifer BHO was trying to shake them down for 2012 campaign money thats all.

Tim waiting for 2012 Fri Apr 3 15:52:44 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

OT - Startling revelations on Three Mile Island & nuclear power
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/3/716139/-Startling-revelations-on-Three-Mile-Islandnuclear-power

A riveting read!

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:52:50 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Startling revelations on Three Mile Island & nuclear power
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/3/716139/-Startling-revelations-on-Three-Mile-Islandnuclear-power

Ariveting read!

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:54:12 2009 CDT #

jo6pac says:

Yep, I can hardly wait until they build some of this junk. :(

Parent Post

jo6pac Fri Apr 3 15:58:45 2009 CDT #

sdbri says:

It's an obvious trap: Give us your money and we'll give back worthless tokens with that same face value.

sdbri Fri Apr 3 15:54:51 2009 CDT #

jo6pac says:

Let C go broke, what's an old factory worth? The earth around old plants might be as toxic as the paper every one thought they were going to get rich on. Save the workers, the hell with everything else. Fiat will end up with the good parts in the end for nothing.

jo6pac Fri Apr 3 15:55:31 2009 CDT #

Kung Fu Panda says:

I'm guessing one bank...most of the examiners are in Puerto Rico still for all we know. Or training the rookies.

Kung Fu Panda Fri Apr 3 15:57:33 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

X is a bondholder in GM/Chysler and has fully hedged this position with a CDS with Y. It looks to me as though the government's best shot is to make some
kind of deal with Y. The only way I can think of to exert pressure on X would be if Y does not have enough money to pay off the CDS. If Y is allowed to go bankrupt and Y is AIG, what would be the priority of a CDS holder relative to other claimants?

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 15:58:30 2009 CDT #

transient says:

Let me guess how this will work. The banks will get another round of ~$5 billion cash infusion from the government sometime after agreering to the swap.

transient Fri Apr 3 16:00:58 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Most see the destruction of the dollar as a fait accomplis. I'm starting to believe the dollar becomes even more entrenched as the reserve currency.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 16:01:37 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Some radiation effects :
http://www.tmia.com/old-website/photos/index.html

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 16:01:59 2009 CDT #

Francified says:

Joe Cassano: Whatcha Gonna Do When They Come For you

http://bit.ly/3FaeWf

The vultures have begun their death spiral toward the souless corpse of Joseph J. Cassano. Ask Joe if payback's a bitch. Last seen biking through the streets of Buenos Aires, Jose might be looking for a new home, preferrably in a locale without one of those pesky extradition treaties.

Francified Fri Apr 3 16:02:21 2009 CDT #

Comrade Byzantine_Ruins says:

Say it don't spray it, Wisdom Speaker. =)

Can you cancel some of those?

Also, js-kit sucks balls.

Comrade Byzantine_Ruins Fri Apr 3 16:03:02 2009 CDT #

Michael says:

"At least 12 killed at immigration center in NY

The gunman had recently been let go from IBM in nearby Johnson City, said Rep. Maurice Hinchey, whose district includes Binghamton. The gunman opened fire on a citizenship class, he said."

http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20090403/49d597d0_3ca6_1552620090403-644287737

Someone getting upset at losing jobs to foreigners?

Michael Fri Apr 3 16:11:46 2009 CDT #

debtinator says:

immigrants mad that immigrants are stealing their jobs? or complete nut case?

Parent Post

debtinator Fri Apr 3 16:17:38 2009 CDT #

Werner says:

O/T :
From Jesse http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/ :

"Until the median wage improves signficantly in real terms, and the economy is put back on a productive basis without relying on the unsupported expansion of credit, there will be no recovery, merely sound byte opportunities for the smoke and mirror crowd.
This is the reality.
----------------------------
So, there are excellent opportunities for the smoke and mirror crowd . (know some ?)
Jesse's is an excellent blog, unfortunately w/o comment section .

Werner Fri Apr 3 16:12:17 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Someone getting upset at losing jobs to foreigners?
---------------------
Gunman was of vietnamese descent.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 16:14:18 2009 CDT #

Comrade Kilgore Trout says:

Dear Comrades:

Lee Iacocca can solve Chrysler's problems.

Yours in Communism,
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMw8Jsqrnaw">Kilgore Trout</a>

Comrade Kilgore Trout Fri Apr 3 16:14:51 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

Since we hijacked this thread to be about CRE

"When sales prices so far exceed replacement costs, disaster is sure to follow," said Zell, speaking of the sky-high commercial real estate prices in Manhattan before the economy deteriorated. "Like any other market, the commercial [real estate] market will not clear until there are trades, and those trades won't occur until a big chunk of the current ownership is wiped out and those assets fall back into the hands of the lending community or they are auctioned."

Apparently Mr. Zell is old enough to remember the last CRE disaster. Apparently the "smart money" was still in highschool when that happened and they didn't read that case study at Harvard B-school. Sucks to be them.

12th Percentile Fri Apr 3 16:21:34 2009 CDT #

CRbot says:

The Latest from Yves:

Guest Post: Non-Farm Payrolls Report: Revisio ad Absurdum

CRbot Fri Apr 3 16:21:45 2009 CDT #

REBear says:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Where-we-get-new-jobs/story.aspx?guid=%7B3DD5A401%2D561C%2D4D66%2D8791%2D7FED11DE94A8%7D

I'm more convinced this is not just a deep cyclical recession but a fundamental "reset," to use a popular word these days. U.S. consumers simply can't resume the debt-induced spending binge that powered the global economy for most of this decade. And the rest of the world, especially China, isn't ready to take up the slack.

REBear Fri Apr 3 16:25:32 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Every job today supports 8.013% more citizens than it did in 2001
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNS12300000

report the controversy!

EvilHenryPaulson Fri Apr 3 16:26:26 2009 CDT #

Comrade Elmer Fudd says:

great headline from the WSJ I just spotted on Google News:

DJIA Has Best 4-Week Streak Since 1933

Comrade Elmer Fudd Fri Apr 3 16:28:32 2009 CDT #

CRbot says:

New Thread: Waiting for the FDIC
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/04/waiting-for-fdic.html ( 0 comments ...You could be FIRST! )

I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: http://realize.org/cr (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)

CRbot is now proud to have the honor of introducing a NEW ERA in CR comments. With the JS-kit, but not below the JS-kit. A independent but integrated solution for all CR fanatics...

Brought to you by the hard work, dedication, and carpal-tunnel ridden fingers of your own yagij (and to a trifling amount your lovable CRbot code janitor, who will be flogged later)....

But first, let me don my ever stylish-- trendy but classic -- black mock turtleneck.
And now, introducing the revolutionary new innovative revolution that will no doubt revolutionize CR comments forever... ENDING the era of agonizing over long, carefully crafted comments only to lose COUNTLESS MINUTES when your comment is eaten by the JS-kit gremlins... CHANGING for all time the way you talk about mortgage pigs, hoopajoops, red and green colored muppets, and born and bred dopes...

With no further adieu... CRbot gives you... THE CRC-IZER!!!!!!!

You can also find a index of the 10 most recent threads, with mobile links at: http://realize.org/cr/crcizer/phpCRo.php

Ahem. Now the skeptical amongst you might consider this to be a joke since it IS April 1st. I find such lack of faith disturbing. Click and BELIEVE!
--Your much-more-db-enhanced bot

yagij and CRbot: Now with more CRC-ized posting power. You can worship us a little now, mortals.

CRbot Fri Apr 3 16:28:52 2009 CDT #

Wisdom Speaker says:

@Byzantine Ruins: "Say it don't spray it, Wisdom Speaker. =) "

Sorry! I was just trying to post while reading the thread using CRC-IZER, since JS-KIT drives me crazy. It turns out that CRC-IZER attempts to "solve" JS-KIT's missing-post problem by repeatedly posting a comment until it gets a proper acknowledgment from JS-KIT!

Wisdom Speaker Fri Apr 3 16:31:57 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

what I'm making light of:
March 09
+694,000 Unemployment
-166,000 Labor Force Population
-861,000 Employment
(1,000 lost employment, but are not unemployed and did not leave the civilian labor force)

<b>-166,000 Change in Civilian Labor Force in March 2009</b>

anything to meet their numbers before revisions I guess

EvilHenryPaulson Fri Apr 3 16:32:47 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

"Obama is playing hardball with the automaker bondholders.

But why is he not playing hardball with the bank bindholders?"

Because the govt doesn't fully understand derivatives and counter party risk well enough to understand GM and Chrysler have signifiact counter party risk.

Anonymous Fri Apr 3 16:59:24 2009 CDT #

Guest says:

Obama has painted himself in a corner with the automakers. If the banks push Chrysler into bankruptcy, the unions will blame their job losses on the White House. If Daimler couldn't make Chrysler work in good economic times, how can poor little Fiat accomplish that? Maybe get a papal blessing for each car they produce...

Guest Fri Apr 3 17:44:25 2009 CDT #

Andreas says:

Funny, weren't they pier loans only because the market is illiquid? There couldn't be any real reason why the debt would not sell at par. I think we need to set up some government-sponsored enterprise to assist speculators in purchasing bad loans - oh, wait, we're doing that already!

Andreas Fri Apr 3 20:10:31 2009 CDT #