Horse, barn door, etc.
- Nemo
"Why do we kid ourselves with pitchfork metaphors of circa 1789, when the present hoi polloi has semi-automatic high velocity pitchforks that spit fire"
Big deal; Bernanke has a bazooka 
Horse, barn door, etc.
- Nemo
bobnbot: typo on your new thread notifier
NEW POST at Calcluated Risk.
It would be nice if they would go after some of the larger players, and not just these small time crooks.
It's good to see RICO finally being used, but I think they should use it in the "bigger fish" as GS, et al.......
So when do they go after the Banksters and Politicans that did the same thing?
yep, faz and fas have crossed. one month ago, faz > 110.
How is this different from the way Wall Street is going to game PPIP?
Oh yeah, when Wall Street does it, that means it is not illegal...
(With apologies to Richard M. Nixon)
Sure, when banks do it, it's "creative". When regular people do it, it's "fraud".
Will this placate the masses, or will the pitchforks become even angrier that Wall Street is still getting away cleanly?
It would be nice if they would go after some of the larger players, and not just these small time crooks. ~lifeguard1999
Jail time is like taxes! Only the little people pay...
Until this country stops going after scarecrows and strikes at the route of all evil, Wall Street...
We will be going nowhere, fast.
""Sure, when banks do it, it's "creative". When regular people do it, it's "fraud"."
When the Fed does it, it's "quantitive easing." When regular people do it, it's "counterfeiting" and jail time.
If Goldman Sachs were doing it, taxpayers would pick up the bill, and the "managers" would all get bonuses.
It's a distraction.
Americans like the idea of justice in terms of those who break the law paying the price, particularly in flyover country (they have no concept of social justice because inequality is less a problem there). Of course this means that those who have done the most harm can sneak out the back window.
CNBC says Obama is going to make a statement on the economy tomorrow. I wonder if he will have a "Mission Accomplished" banner behind him.
Ben Dover,
I...Let's say, I wouldn't be surprised if various agencies are going after the banksters. The big fish learned a while back not to leave email or paper trails, so the feds have to work their way up using smaller fishes' testimonies to work on cases against the big fishes. Unfortunately, most will get away with the crime and your tax dollars. Anyway, it will take a while. Forensic accountants are still unwinding option backdating scandals from years ago.
So bad I'll post it again
The Future of Retirement in the USSA
1. All working people will be required to pay (5-10% of income) into a Government Pension Fund which will invest in US treasuries or Bailout Bonds. People will be returned that money when they reach 72 years of age in the for of Monthly checks.
2. 401k will not have to be offered and their will be no company matches. Instead Companies will contribute to the Pension Fund
3. All corporate, state and Municipal Pensions will be folded into the new program because hey they were insolvent anyways.
4. Roth IRA's will still be available.
It will be sold as a WIN-WIN. Win for the Government because you no longer have people deferring taxes. Win for the "common man" because he has governemnt security.
Lose for capitalism, personal responsibility and enterprise.
Oh Smack we went positive =) If we go positive tomorrow I'll have to cover some
CNBC says Obama is going to make a statement on the economy tomorrow.
i'm in the lottery to get tickets... not sure what else he can say that hasn't already been said.
Tim, you're confusing a pension plan with our existing social insurance plan, Social Security.
Oregon unemployment for March is 12.1%
Wahoo Ma we made the big leagues!
http://www.oregon.gov/EMPLOY/COMM/news/march_2009_unemployment.shtml
Why do we kid ourselves with pitchfork metaphors of circa 1789, when the present hoi polloi has semi-automatic high velocity pitchforks that spit fire?
See kids....when you are poor and you commit fraud, you get RICO charges. When you are rich and powerful(AIG) you can make all the fraudulent promises in the world, collect the fees(pay offs) and THEN you get bailed out and paid bonuses with the bailout money to boot.
God Bless America.
All working people will be required to pay (5-10% of income) into a Government Pension Fund which will invest in US treasuries or Bailout Bonds.
ummm, that's called social security.
Pitchforks hurt more - make dying slower.
They always find a fall guy in business but what about the politicians. The people we pay for protection from bad banksters. Not one of them will go down.
Some here are never satisfied. I'm happy that the pawnsmight see jail time--as I said in the previous thread, fraudsters need pawns--all bad guys should know a jailmate is possible--probable--doable. accessories before and after the fact need "time out."
No Social Security has already been spent (War, Stimulus bailouts, health care, bridges to no where, roads etc) . Its no longer there. This will be a start from scratch new program that will be on top of social security.
This will be a start from scratch new program that will be on top of social security.
Yep, if Ponzi doesn't work you always have Super-Ponzi as a fall back.
All working people will be required to pay (5-10% of income) into a Government Pension Fund which will invest in US treasuries or Bailout Bonds.
Sounds like the Argentina plan.
Does that come with Cholera in the drinking water?
House Democrats contemplate abolishing 401(k) tax breaks
Mandatory contributions from workers considered
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081012/REG/31...
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation's $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
To be more precise, the Ponzi scheme was said to be bankrupt, and the fleecing began when we "fixed" the Ponzi scheme by turning it into a "pension plan" that "accumulated assets" to be used to pay off "future retirees."
A pension plan would just jump right over the "based in reality" phase into the "offsets deficit spending fake money" phase.
Here is a pic of Pres Bush in front of a small filing cabinet that has all the records of the trust fund Soc Sec represents. More meaningless paper.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.chrismartenson.com/fil...
@ ac
Exactly!
"The big fish learned a while back not to leave email or paper trails"
lama,
Your comment somehow reminded me of Abscam. How many of us would love to learn that PPIP is just a set-up for a massive sting operation that puts banksters behind bars?
A plan by Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic-policy analysis at The New School for Social Research in New York, contains elements that are being considered.
"I want to stop the federal subsidy of 401(k)s," Ms. Ghilarducci said in an interview. "401(k)s can continue to exist, but they won't have the benefit of the subsidy of the tax break."
After the Soviet Union fell apart, retired citizens still got the social security payments, the buying power of which equalled perhaps a pound of turnips, per month.
I suspect that retiring baby-boomers will get their $1,000 a month of social security here as well. Whether it will buy more or less than a pound of turnips remains to be seen...
I love turnips, where can I sign up?
Just turnip and we'll take care of you.
People want Socialism. Its a trend not a Fad... Sadly
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/04/09/2009-04-09_many_amer...
As a matter of fact...
Oh my! Are those green turnip shoots that I see?
http://images.quickblogcast.com/4/3/9/8/5/168941-158934/turnip_seedlings...
The economy is surely on the road to recovery.
Wouldn't immediate taxation of 401(k) money remove the only theoretical benefit of putting money in illiquid high-cost/low-return funds?
""401(k)s can continue to exist, but they won't have the benefit of the subsidy of the tax break.""
---------------
Errr, then it's not a 401K?
Things are about get even kookier.
In lieu of been there, done that socialism...
How about SoCalism?
Everybody lives beyond their means and tries to impress neighbors not worth impressing with verdant displays of debt on the driveway.
@ anonymous & Broward Horne
"Yes and yeser"
"The big fish learned a while back not to leave email or paper trails"
Now you know why the Prez insisted on keeping his Blackberry.
In the meantime, Paulson, Rubin, Summers and Geithner run free.
Macht Frei
Already been there too. Here comes the Socialism where everyone is allowed to keep their guns!
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation's $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
Sounds like as good a catalyst as any I've heard for putting the S&P500 on an express elevator back to to the early 90s.
OT I don't think CR likes me he never gives me any hat tips for posting articles... Glad to do it anyways.
Hang em High, After conviction that is, year 2029....It seems like we have a lot of Madoff's in the US wanting something for nothing and willing to lie and steal their way to the American dream. What ever happened to just being happy with a good deal? Oh, that was so last century.
I would support elimination of the deduction for employers for contributing matching funds. That would cause businesses to stop offering 401(k) plans as a benefit. That would be OK, as individuals can obviously just open IRA's.
It sounds like the objective is to punish the investment bankers for taking fees. Because god knows that just regulating that shit is too difficult, I'm sure.
It's a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
The only response to that is to try the parents for treason and send the people running the water concession to work camps in Alaska.
That 401(k) article is six months old. Do you have a link to pending legislation or at least more recent discussions?
Kung Fu Panda.
Except that people can't defer any of their income for taxes later. This would be a huge tax increase on the salary workers.
ok, i support Obama on this plan:
The plan is the main money-saving component of Mr. Obama's education agenda, which includes a sweeping overhaul of financial aid programs. The Congressional Budget Office says replacing subsidized loans made by private banks with direct government lending would save $94 billion over the next decade, money that Mr. Obama would use to expand Pell grants for the poorest students.
Since student loans are the ultimate "fog a mirror" loan, and the DoE already does direct lending, there really is no need to subsidize private banks when the loans are fully guaranteed. bye-bye, sallie mae.
Pitchforks may be dated technology, but banksters's heads on pikes are an evergreen method to symbolize the peasants -landless or not- have had enough with the oppression.
Mind you, bankster, the humiliated Cossacks of flyover country may soon come to visit you.
There was an article on NPR this morning about electric powered lawnmowers.
I found myself wondering why you would buy such a thing. Surely there are better uses of a front yard than as a lawn. Even more decorate uses that show that you give a shit. Lawns are the lowest common denominator by far. How about a nice French style floral garden, or an Italian water garden? A serene and peaceful zen garden, or god forbid raise some food on that ground.
Better than polluting the land with chemicals designed to make your garden grow dandelion free. At least the dandelions are attractive to look at.
Saw a picture of Bernie Madoff today, and he's a dead ringer for the warden in Shawshank Redemption.
Funny, ain't it?
ATM Card
Talk died down when BHO came in but it appears inevitable unless we see the DOW hit 20k in the next 5 years. Look for something more recent.
Tim, your article posting may have gotten cherry picked by someone from the private CR posting club to which you and I don't belong. Dawg mentioned there was such a club, but I don't know it for certain. Maybe you have to subscribe to CR's service to be part of it. Not that it means anyhting, but here's a hat tip, and I didn't even know you posted a link to an article.
Amen, Dead_Monkey_Bounce.
For what it's worth, quite a few socialist countries allow their citizens to legally own rifles, not that most Americans would know, as they've been blinded to the facts, by a curiously named group called the National Rifle Association.
Turnip Seeds !
Basel Too
Who do you think will pay for expansion of the Student loan program? Government will decide who goes to college and what programs get money good or bad thing depending on what side of the fence you're on.
"You always have Super-Ponzi as a fall back."
-----------------
Nice.
Like Super Mario Brothers!
Where the scores and challenges are even larger.
House GOP Group Introduces Workers', Families' Savings Plan
Tuesday March 24th, 2009 / 20h52
http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/marches/house-gop-group-intro...
I was amused when William Black called Madoff a piker. I'd never heard that word before. Safe to say that these guys are just pikers.
401k match has always been a bogus benefit, as it favors senior management over workers, due to the match being a percentage of the employee contribution. And frequently companies make their match in company stock, which is bad because it ties the employee to the company's prospects.
Who do you think will pay for expansion of the Student loan program?
The expansion is a totally independent issue. The issue here is whether the USG continues to subsidize private banks for making 100% risk-free loans that require no credit assessment whatsoever..
I knew a gal named turnipseed. No kidding. First time she said her name, I laughed out loud. She had nice tits.
90% of the economy is just turnips, as it turns out.
I think Black misused the word, actually. A piker is a small-time gambler. Maybe he meant it ironically.
tomorrow Goldman reports record STOLEN earnings.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\||||||||||||||||||||||||||//////////////////////////
Panda Bear
Forget the match the tax-deferred part is what concerned me. Hits upper-middle income more so I agree with that. Poor don't own stocks just houses.
Basel Too
Looks like we won't get one without the other
DPM- I should have noted that Black spoke in comparison to the banking centers. Sorry.
Turnips and Potatoes saved the Europeans during the little ice age. It took them a couple of centuries to make the switch from cereal grains, but they finally changed their ridiculously stubborn ways and learned to love the root vegetables....except for the french....they would not give up their vaunted bread. They do have great bread...I will give them that....but Cali now has better wine, IMHO.
Who would have though the sequel of a not-so good film would lose $50 Billion?
Weakened @ Bernies
Американцы лжецов и мошенников .
"Why do we kid ourselves with pitchfork metaphors of circa 1789, when the present hoi polloi has semi-automatic high velocity pitchforks that spit fire"
Big deal; Bernanke has a bazooka
"which is bad because it ties the employee to the company's prospects"
-------------------
Interesting implied morality.
why is it bad to tie a worker to the company's prospects?
That's the basis for stock options.
Bernanke has a bazooka and a helicopter.
Basel Too,
Universities will raise their tuition fees to absorb the additional funds provided by the additional Pell grants. In particular, highly selective schools such as Harvard are likely to do so.
Bazooka Joe was the Hankster, who nobody has heard hide or hair of since January 20th...
There should be no distinction between employee and company. They should be one and the same. Thta thye aren't is the problem....or one of the many problems.
I think Paulson grew his hair out so you can no longer recognize him on the street.
Borroco
Yes I heard there is a secret meeting room for poster on a old Lycos page somewhere in bowels of the internet.
http://www.lycos.com/ Here's a link thanks for the tip ; - )
"OT I don't think CR likes me he never gives me any hat tips for posting articles... Glad to do it anyways. "
That's because you sound like a Republican
Played 50 Cent: Blood on the Sand?
Taking down that helicopter will be no problem as long as we have an adequately upgraded pistol.
In the days of the Soviet Union, the state shoe company was instructed to manufacture 1 million shoes, although they only had enough leather for perhaps 1/2 that amount, so what to do?
Easy peasy, make 1 million shoes in women's size 1, problem solved.
Are we really all that different from the Soviet Union?
That's because you sound like a Republican
I think so... Though i am registered a Democrat need to change that to independent
Question; When/Why did companies switch from paying monthly dividends to quarterly?
"quite a few socialist countries allow their citizens to legally own rifles,
"
FWIW, here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts, the requirements for purchasing a rifle have become so onerous that one is temped to either not have one, or move. Roe vs. Wade suggested that an abortion was a constitutionally protected right, and as such, the government should pay for them (this was back in the '70), and voting is a right, and you couldn't impose poll taxes (aka fees), but for one explicit right stated in the Bill of Rights, this state imposes a stiff fee and required "education" at the citizen's expense in order to qualify, and the local law enforcement official can still deny the request if s/he so chooses. It's an abomination of the law.
BH,
Enron encouraged its employees to buy company stock using their 401k's. The reduced diversification can be bad. If your company goes under, you lose your job and a chunk of your savings simultaneously. For rank and file workers and stock options, it's difficult to measure concrete actions that materially affect a company's value. For senior executives, stock options encourage short-term thinking and managing earnings a la GE. And the options generally just get re-priced by rubber stamp boards of directors anyway if the deadline comes and they are underwater.
If you're an employee of a small company, stock ownership makes sense as your interests as an employee and owner are aligned, with those of other owners. For a large company, management can manipulate earnings and stock prices at the expense of shareholders that are not insiders.
I repeat my prior comments that some law firm will figure out how to do civil rico on a number of participants in the bubble. The mail and/or wire fraud parts will probably be useful. Where MBS or shares of bank stock were involved, the securities parts may be useful.
They will probably also have a copy of Civil RICO By Gregory Joseph on their bookshelf.
If successful, the damages will be mindboggling.
"House GOP Group Introduces Workers', Families' Savings Plan
Tuesday March 24th, 2009 / 20h52"
Haven't they heard about the savings glut! /snark
Who do I send the bill too?
GENERAL MOTORS IS RECALLING 1,497,516 MY 1997-2003 BUICK REGAL, MY 1998-2003 CHEVROLET LUMINA, MONTE CARLO AND IMPALA, MY 1998-1999 OLDSMOBILE INTRIGUE, MY 1997-2003 PONTIAC GRAND PRIX VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A 3.8L V6 NATURALLY ASPIRATED ENGINE. SOME OF THESE VEHICLES HAVE A CONDITION IN WHICH DROPS OF ENGINE OIL MAY BE DEPOSITED ON THE EXHAUST MANIFOLD THROUGH HARD BRAKING.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recalls/results.cfm?rcl_id=09V116&searchtyp...
Tim Waiting for 2012,
CR probably doesn't hat tip you because you are a right wing tool, along the lines of Michael. Right wing tools, after the last 8 years, you may not realize, have very little credibility.
This thing is eating comments.
Welcome to the straw economy. Works well for a while.....
CR its all good. No hard feelings.
"Enron encouraged its employees to buy company stock using their 401k's."
------------------
How is this different than the U.S. Gov't encouraging its employees to buy treasuries?
So the moraiity of stock ownership is determined by the size of the company?
Large company == evil, small company == good.
Interesting assumption.
Welcome to the straw economy. Works well for a while.....
" Kung.Fu.Panda (member) wrote on Mon, 04/13/2009 - 11:47am.
Basel Too,
Universities will raise their tuition fees to absorb the additional funds provided by the additional Pell grants. In particular, highly selective schools such as Harvard are likely to do so."
Most highly selective schools now waive tuition to those with family incomes below $60-100,000. I believe it's $100,000 for Harvard--sometimes gift horses have noting bad within.
Full Stop
That's hurts man. I try. I really do
Tim,
There are still companies that pay monthly dividends. I think that historically, companies would pay "monthly" dividends that were announced at the end of each quarter.
From the business's perspective it is cheaper to just do it on a quarterly basis along with their required financial reporting. Investors who trade a lot probably would prefer monthlies, I guess.
NEW POST at Calcluated Risk.
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"there is no conspiracy"
--------------
Yes, quite the appropriate reply in a thread about Rico fraud.
Very droll, CR.
Touche.
Tim?
Try harder. Drop the tool belt and step away from the ledge.
Ledge/hedge?
So what does the upcoming revolution most look like?
China 1949: 6-1
Russia 1917: 5-2
Buenos Aries 2002: Even Money
Paris 1789: 7-5
Place your bets...
Paris. Americans don't really do the marching in the streets banging pots thing, we pretty much go from grumbling straight to shooting.
BH,
"Large company == evil, small company == good."
Nah, there's plenty of examples of small business skulduggery. It's just that the tool of stock and stock options as a means of aligning management incentives with those of all shareholders is harder for firms with large numbers of shareholders, particularly when a lot of the shareholders are passive investors. The agency theory branch of finance is all about this.
Tim?
Try harder. Drop the tool belt and step away from the ledge.
---------------
You should step over the ledge instead of posting weak trolls. This is serious discussion it's not for you kiddo.
"hose of all shareholders is harder for firms with large numbers of shareholders, particularly when a lot of the shareholders are passive investors"
-------------
Hmmm, so apparently it's a function of shareholder activism which defines "evil" versus "good".
Calculated Risk is great at reporting. But I don't get it. I feel like the driver of a car looking quickly at a traffic accident beside the side of the road.
Not one useful suggestion. Reporting, self-indulgent 'I told you so', glee at misery - is this all that people need right now?
Yes! I think that Calculated Risk offers a very important service - transparency.
However! Every day I visit Calculated Risk. And every day I get nothing that will help me or anybody else in a single concrete way.
Hey (with all due respect - her detailed information was a great and practical help to me) - Tanta might ask - this is a time for Action? Hey - Tanta might say - time to give people tips about negotiating mortgages in a practical way? Time to give every visitor one money saving tip that makes their visit to your blog worthwhile - even if they disagree with your opinions and analysis?
Calculated Risk : you are the mother lode of information about the pain of the credit crisis. Perhaps it is time to become a producer of wealth instead of just a reporter at a funeral?
I will offer this question to all bloggers who read this : make sure there is at least one clever and money saving tip on your blog every day? Think about it! If every blogger that comments at Calculated Risk could save their readers a few bucks a day - the Credit Crisis would become nothing more than a chance for people celebrate their bloggers!
I try and keep my own blog useful (with a healthy and environmentally useful money saver tip every day), fun and inspiring every day. I would be delighted if every blogger who reads this would at least add one clever money saver tip to their blogs every day - including (the heavyweight) Calculated Risk.
If the world is going to survive this credit crisis rip-off scam - it will be bloggers who do the heavy lifting. It's not easy to find a great money-saver tip every day.
Thank you Calculated Risk! Time for a dash of Calculated ROIC?
CR probably doesn't hat tip you because you are a right wing tool, along the lines of Michael.
Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark...
ISTR something about this infiltrate-and-disrupt technique for taking over conversations/discussions and re-purposing them. Michael strikes me as one of those - 2012 just seems like a tool. The former is a kind of insidious inversion of populism (quite effective since the days of Tricky Dick), but at least it's so conniving as to be admirable.
Seems like the FeeBies are having a real "I told you so" moment (week? month?)...I think they're having their own special Schadenfreude party!
I try and keep my own blog useful (with a healthy and environmentally useful money saver tip every day)
Here's a tip: don't buy a house
--
The Zombie Apocalypse begins when U3 hits 15%
Hmmm, so apparently it's a function of shareholder activism which defines "evil" versus "good".
Broward, that sounds about right. Think of it as transparency of scale or, better, opacity of scale. Options/stocks manipulation will always be a temptation to management, and passivity will always remain the tendency among stockholders not employed by the firm. The bright line appears at the time of IPO or shortly after.
Do the undead count as unemployed, underemployed, or employed?
Do the undead count as unemployed, underemployed, or employed?
Unemployed, but fortunately they can still qualify for great rates at zombie banks!
--
The Zombie Apocalypse begins when U3 hits 15%
"Do the undead count as unemployed, underemployed, or employed?"
--------------
Self-employed.
Most of the undead that I know file 1099 and write off their housing and meals.
addendum - have seen that 'bright line' appear at the time of reverse split to prevent SEC oversight of closely-held companies.
Q: So when do they go after the Banksters and Politicans that did the same thing?
A: As soon as the banksters and politicians stop having banksters and politicians on their side.
Another 100K of these RICO prosecutions and we might start making a dent, especially if the feds claw back profits and force asset forfeiture.
Tim,
American engineering can fix that for pennies.
They are not going to fix the oil leaks, they just use a little shield so the oil falls on the ground and no longer on the manifold.
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