Comments for AIG Discloses Counterparties
Nemo says:
"AIG" ... "billion" ... "billion" ... "billion" ...
I get the drift.
Nemo Sun Mar 15 19:59:47 2009 CDT #
nincompoop says:
First Comment, GS a winner.
nincompoop Sun Mar 15 20:00:06 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
This comment thread has been HALO-IZED by CRbot.
http://realize.org/cr/halokit.php?halourl=http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/6924383479560612627
CRbot Sun Mar 15 20:00:56 2009 CDT #
Nemo says:
Oh yeah and "Goldman Sachs"
Stunning, but not surprising.
Nemo Sun Mar 15 20:01:44 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
I'm so happy for Bernanke that his dream of siphoning off hundreds of billions to foreign banks as expressed in his 2002 speech has finally become a reality.
Altruism is a funny thing.
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:01:53 2009 CDT #
crispy and cole says:
GS what a shock!!
Yeah, the losers here figuered that was the reason back in Sept...
GS = biggest criminals in america
crispy and cole Sun Mar 15 20:06:05 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
"AIG has sold hundreds of billions of dollars of credit insurance through AIG Financial Products"
Like the WSJ, FT is calling CDSs "insurance."
Why aren't they regulated like insurance?
reptillian Sun Mar 15 20:07:32 2009 CDT #
graingod says:
Reptilian, They are called swaps for that very reason, no state ins, commis. nosing around. Free market baby.
Parent Post
graingod Sun Mar 15 21:13:45 2009 CDT #
Road Runner says:
@ Reptilian & graingod:
"Resolved: CDS is a form of insurance"
pro:
economicsofcontempt.blogspot.com/2008/10/cds-as-insurance.html
con: http://www.andersonkill.com/webpdfext/CreditDefaultSwaps-ABriefInsurancePrimer.pdf
The effect of a "non-insurance" CDS market is providing another data point in the history of the doctrine of "insurable interest":
http://seekingalpha.com/article/99455-time-to-rethink-the-doctrine-of-insurable-interest-in-light-of-cds
Parent Post
Road Runner Mon Mar 16 12:42:43 2009 CDT #
Nemo says:
Alea has the hard numbers
Good to know this is what I work for.
Nemo Sun Mar 15 20:07:36 2009 CDT #
8 Ball says:
GS = biggest criminals in america
....................................
Could not say it better myself. If the gubbmint had any stugots they will get all the money back from them and every other bank that got money. I doubt they will do it.
8 Ball Sun Mar 15 20:09:00 2009 CDT #
crispy and cole says:
"Why aren't they regulated like insurance?"
Then they would need reserves to back it up...better just to sell products, rack up huge fees, pay bonuses and then beg the govt for the reserves...
crispy and cole Sun Mar 15 20:09:09 2009 CDT #
WAWAWA says:
Only after AIG execuitves smell threat of their bonuses confiscated by gov. then they decide to reveal list of the counterparties
WAWAWA Sun Mar 15 20:10:03 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
> GS = biggest criminals in america
You could say that, or you could say that they played the game by its rules, which they did, and were just the smartest guys in the room. You can not claw back previously paid bonusses so the only recourse you have, which I thibk Obama understands, is higher taxation of obscene salaries.
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:13:36 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
I disagree. GS put people in Treasury TO game the rules. I bet you that HP knew that GS was the beneficiary of any AIG bail out money. This to me is criminal and the fact that you don't see it that way tells me that you work for the "industry of finance" better known as organized crime
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Anonymous Sun Mar 15 20:55:47 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
Crabs of Steel:
Yes, we can clawback what is owed us: Goldman Sachs will PAY WITH THEIR LIVES!!!
Long live the chopper! Up with People and DOWN WITH THE MACHINE!!
THE AMERICAN PARTY
America for Americans
Parent Post
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:04:22 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
> Yes, we can clawback what is owed us: Goldman Sachs will PAY WITH THEIR LIVES!!!
Sorry if I cannot satisfy your blood lust but I think they are going to pay for it via higher taxes. The circle is unbroken.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 21:07:14 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
"or you could say that they played the game by its rules, which they did, and were just the smartest guys in the room."
Given they occupy so many key positions in the government, you might say, they MADE the rules too. Hence the ability to profit more easily.
Parent Post
Anonymous Mon Mar 16 00:11:58 2009 CDT #
Sexy Derivative says:
Why not just say, 'Yep, what the NY Times said'.
Sexy Derivative Sun Mar 15 20:14:36 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Are these millions / billions hard numbers??
C
Counterpointer Sun Mar 15 20:14:44 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"You could say that, or you could say that they played the game by its rules, which they did,"
Or you could investigate the real history of Goldman Sachs.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:15:02 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
Yes, smartass and what is that? I worked there for 12 yearsm and when my wife was sick with cancer and I had to take care of her, they kept me on full salary. They are a class act. What's your gripe?
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:24:38 2009 CDT #
Tom Stone says:
Why couldn't we have spent that money on something worthwhile such as hookers and blow?
Tom Stone Sun Mar 15 20:16:09 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
The Latest from Yves:
AIG Posts List of <strike>Beneficiaries of Government Largesse</strike> Counterparties
CRbot Sun Mar 15 20:17:58 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
super senior multi-sector credit default swap portfolio of AIG Financial Products Corp.
I don't care who you are; that just sounds so sexy!
punditry Sun Mar 15 20:19:30 2009 CDT #
lama says:
Actually, Obama wants to increase taxes on people making more than $200k. I think that's more populist marketing than anything. If he wants to take away special tax treatment for hedge fund principals, have at it. $200k isn't much in a major city.
lama Sun Mar 15 20:21:52 2009 CDT #
timetopay says:
"2ooK isn't much" -- wow, this place is for rich folks -- I'm embarassed and leaving....
Parent Post
timetopay Sun Mar 15 21:26:22 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
"On November 11, 2008, the Los Angeles Times reported that Goldman Sachs, which earned $25 M from underwriting California bonds, had advised other clients to "short" those bonds. Shorting is essentially betting that the state will default on the bonds, which serves to drive up the cost of the issue to the state."
From Wikipedia's "Goldman Sachs" entry.
reptillian Sun Mar 15 20:24:41 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
Thank you Wikipedia, but you really can't short bonds. This is misinformation.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:29:47 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
Excuse me, I should have said, you can't short muni bonds. You can not short an asset in an illiquid market and munis are illiquid.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:31:35 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
Paloma Securities
0.2
Citadel
0.2
Big RED flag #2...
whyowhy are we backing up private hedge'ies?
punditry Sun Mar 15 20:24:58 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"whyowhy are we backing up private hedge'ies?"
the NYFed is basically a gigantic SIV at this point. professional courtesy.
Parent Post
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:31:20 2009 CDT #
Tyson99 says:
So 40% of the initial AIG bailout went to pay off foreign banks. Thank you Paulson!
Tyson99 Sun Mar 15 20:25:28 2009 CDT #
albrt says:
I heard on NPR this morning that the problem with AIG's CDS contracts was that they were "backed by risky subprime mortgages."
It seems unlikely to me that an organization like NPR still doesn't have a reporter or editor who knows the difference between MBS, CDO and CDS. Many of AIG's CDS contracts may have been written to cover MBS or CDO losses, but AIG's CDS contracts were not "backed" by anything whatsoever. That's the whole problem.
There really is no chance at all of fixing the credit markets when the average person doesn't understand the problem, while the press, the government and the interested parties are all actively covering up what happened.
albrt Sun Mar 15 20:27:38 2009 CDT #
goodrich4bk says:
Well, maybe it's just shorthand, but NPR has the concept kinda right. In a CDS, if the covered security defaults, AIG "swaps" collateral or cash for the covered security -- here, MBS made up of subprime mortgages. So AIG's CDS contract is, in a sense, backed by the almost worthless subprime mortgages.
Parent Post
goodrich4bk Sun Mar 15 21:23:41 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
"There really is no chance at all of fixing the credit markets when the average person doesn't understand the problem, while the press, the government and the interested parties are all actively covering up what happened."
Well, that's why sensible people ignore the "press" especially the "official press" like the shills at PBS, and read the blogs like this one, run by people who know what they're talking about.
Parent Post
Anonymous Mon Mar 16 12:20:33 2009 CDT #
joe shmoe says:
I think I find Austan Goolsbee's comment the most offensive of the day. As reported in the NYT, he said this:
“He [Geithner] stepped in and berated them, got them to reduce the bonuses following every legal means he has to do this,” Mr. Goolsbee said on “Fox News Sunday.” “I don’t know why they would follow a policy that’s really not sensible, is obviously going to ignite the ire of millions of people, and we’ve done exactly what we can do to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.'
1) Why is management doing this at AIG, even though it is not sensible and will provoke backlash? Like a U of Chicago economist can't figure that out? In AIG's late kleptocratic heyday as a privately owned firm, the management sold CDS insurance policies it oculd never pay off on and did so happily because all management cared about was raking the money from the sales. Now AIG is a zombie company. It has no future worth investing in. So what will management do? Why would it ever loot the company less than before.
Goolsbee!! They are looting the company, and the US govt through the company. that's why they don't give a rat's ass whether it is sensible policy or not!
2)And then Goolsbee say, "and we’ve done exactly what we can do to prevent this kind of thing from happening again." Horseshit, Goolsbee! No, you haven't done the one basic thing that would have prevented this, would prevent it from happening again, and would possibly enable the govt to clawback the bonus money: send shitpile into bankruptcy (pre-privatization)! Do it pre-packaged. Guarantee the counterparties if that is really necessary, in whole or part (let's leave this part for someone else's rant). But send AIG into bankruptcy. Then contracts go to the bankruptcy judge. That is the cure and what should have been done in the first place.
My last hope is that Jon Stewart will call them out on this nonsense. Someone has to.....and who else is left?
joe shmoe Sun Mar 15 20:29:39 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"They are a class act. "
Much like how Madoff sought to take care of close friends and family at the end there. Classy indeed. However, the kind of class which would never own a place in Stamford doesn't really enter the equation, does it?
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:30:14 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
Joe Sicks,
that you can equate Madoff with Goldman Sachs shows that you have an anger issue which can only be resolved by going back to the yahoo finance chatrooms. Be gone with you.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:34:09 2009 CDT #
joe shmoe says:
I need a stiff drink and a lie-down on the sofa . . . I'm becoming incoherent with rage.
joe shmoe Sun Mar 15 20:31:46 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"Yes, smartass and what is that? I worked there for 12 yearsm and when my wife was sick with cancer and I had to take care of her, they kept me on full salary. They are a class act. What's your gripe?"
My gripe is that they are corrupt lying fuckers. You got full salary as they fucked tax-payers over. Goldman Sachs and the government are one and the same.
I'm well aware of the front-running trading, publicly saying one thing as they privately traded the other way (selling MBS to retail clients at the same time they shorted via CDS from AIG). I could go on and on but I think I'll stop there. They are dirty as were most major financial trading firms and are unable to give impartial advice.
The fact that you were treated well is a separate issue from crimes perpetrated on US tax-payers by Goldman Sachs and their brethren.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:32:18 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
poic.v20
Goldman never sold MBS to retail clients. Although I sympathize with your anger, your facts are wrong, because Goldman does not do retail, only high net worth. Nevertheless, let's suppose you're right in saying that they front ran clients while trading against them. It was true only because they adhered to regulation which said that trading had to have a Chinese wall to separate it fron investment management. I'm not saying the rules made sense, but those were the rules.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:40:33 2009 CDT #
That\'s Ballgame, Goat Herders says:
None of this will matter when we're all unemployed.
That\'s Ballgame, Goat Herders Sun Mar 15 20:32:41 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
I apologize for swearing but GS makes my blood boil.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:33:57 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"The fact that you were treated well is a separate issue"
actually, it is entirely relevant in the bigger picture.
mobsters and money launderers love to show individual and personal largesse. it doesn't just ease the conscience, it often buys political goodwill.
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:34:49 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"that you can equate Madoff with Goldman Sachs "
That you can't shows that you are closing your eyes to the history behind Goldman Sachs.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:35:16 2009 CDT #
reptillian says:
crabsofsteel,
Couldn't the CA bonds could be "shorted" with credit default swaps
reptillian Sun Mar 15 20:35:34 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
crabsofsteel,
> Couldn't the CA bonds could be "shorted" with credit > default swaps
Yes they could have but who would have sold you that insurance? AIG I suppose. Not only that, usually muni bonds were already insured by the likes of MBIA and Ambac.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:56:13 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"that you can equate Madoff with Goldman Sachs "
au contraire, good sir, I feel that you are the one with issues vis-a-vis reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Colombo#Italian-American_Civil_Rights_League
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:36:48 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"crabsofsteel,
Couldn't the CA bonds could be "shorted" with credit default swaps"
Of course they can, but it's much better to just say that you can't short muni-bonds. Literally it's true and it keeps the golden aura over GS.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:37:40 2009 CDT #
crispy and cole says:
GS = Madoff...
After years on here I think that is the consenus
crispy and cole Sun Mar 15 20:37:52 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"GS = Madoff... "
the difference is that Madoff came clean like a man when caught. I would be shocked if even one of the thousands of gangsters in the GS mob were capable of that moment of clarity.
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:39:46 2009 CDT #
sandito says:
Crabs....
They looted billions... they threw a couple of nickels your way...
Coming soon - GS to zero and there will be perp walks... will you be on the walk?
Don't forget to smile for the camera.
Cheese......
sandito Sun Mar 15 20:40:02 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
And the Europhiles in the peanut gallery grow silent.
Anyway. I note that the dispensations are for Q4 08 only. I thought things got worse in January.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 20:40:05 2009 CDT #
JimPortlandOR says:
Can't wait for AIG (head of the line) to be dismembered like a cattle carcass, the bones rendered, the meat turned into fish food (not good enough for dogs), and the offal incinerated into ashes. Leave nothing remaining.
JimPortlandOR Sun Mar 15 20:41:12 2009 CDT #
8 Ball says:
Yeah, where is Werner tonite? Cannot wait for him to get ihis smug self on the boards tomorrow.
8 Ball Sun Mar 15 20:42:58 2009 CDT #
1 currency [yogi] says:
Please don't chase away the GS man. Perhaps we can learn things that everyone says should be transparent, but aren't.
1 currency [yogi] Sun Mar 15 20:43:15 2009 CDT #
Feckless Ness says:
I'm becoming incoherent with rage.
I read somewhere that an hour of anger produces enough toxins in human saliva to kill a hamster or guinea pig or some such. So you're only hurting yourself, Joe. They don't give a rat's ass. Best to get Zen about it.
Feckless Ness Sun Mar 15 20:43:21 2009 CDT #
goodrich4bk says:
I'd check on where you read that. Probably some corporate-funded laissez-faire institute...
Parent Post
goodrich4bk Sun Mar 15 21:28:43 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"Goldman never sold MBS to retail clients. Although I sympathize with your anger, your facts are wrong, because Goldman does not do retail, only high net worth."
So retail is not high net worth? Man oh man do you really believe what you write?
"It was true only because they adhered to regulation which said that trading had to have a Chinese wall to separate it fron investment management. I'm not saying the rules made sense, but those were the rules."
And I believe in the tooth fairy. Again facts do not support your claims. I understand they paid you well but you need to open your eyes.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 15 20:44:04 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
Since you don't know the business, I'll educate you even though your first impression is that you want to lynch people including yours truly. There is a difference between retail (Merrill Lynch) and high net worth (both Merrill and Goldman). Merrill has thousands of brokers and GS has hundreds if that.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:50:02 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Republicamps - http://tinyurl.com/cjr9b4 :-$
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 20:45:11 2009 CDT #
wtf says:
"Republicamps"?
How about "shruburbs" ?
Parent Post
wtf Sun Mar 15 20:49:53 2009 CDT #
sneeringnihilist says:
jimportlandor - 6:41:12 PM
there is nothing there to dismember. corporations have more rights than humans but can't be held accountable in any meaningful way.
sneeringnihilist Sun Mar 15 20:46:43 2009 CDT #
Elrod says:
Why are AIG's bonus contracts sacrosanct? The company was taken over by the government. Doesn't that act as a sort of bankruptcy provision, where old contracts get ripped up?
Elrod Sun Mar 15 20:47:45 2009 CDT #
Basel Too says:
i've gotten numb to everything going on. can only hope to navigate against the stupidity on both sides of the aisle.
Basel Too Sun Mar 15 20:48:27 2009 CDT #
wally says:
"Like the WSJ, FT is calling CDSs "insurance."
Why aren't they regulated like insurance?"
We have a winner! Calling something "insurance" does not make it "insurance".
These were gambling bets place by high-roller execs with other people's money and when they lost they went crying to Uncle, who is apparently willing to buy into the swindle and continue to pay other people's money to keep the game going. Bernanke is an academic ego with utterly no sense of morality or responsible and Geither is a hired ringer who is working for banks. There will be no surprises - none - from those two once you understand the rules.
wally Sun Mar 15 20:49:59 2009 CDT #
crispy and cole says:
TARPvilles is my preference
crispy and cole Sun Mar 15 20:50:31 2009 CDT #
NervousRex says:
So I just gave $43 to Goldman Sachs? (More proportionally by taxes).
What legal basis is there for me to be ripped off for $43?
NervousRex Sun Mar 15 20:50:43 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
You gave money to GS because Hank Paulson had one overriding philosophy: whatever happened, GS could not go down. There is no legal opinion in the case of govt bailouts.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 20:58:48 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
And you don't see anything wrong with this? I wonder when will GS come out and say some thing like "We are the smart ones let the rest eat cake" :-D
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:09:12 2009 CDT #
sneeringnihilist says:
I read somewhere that an hour of anger produces enough toxins in human saliva to kill a hamster or guinea pig or some such.-- Feckless Ness
no dude, you got it wrong. ayn rand's(not all humans) spit would blind(not kill) people. she successfully defended herself by spitting into the face of a mugger once. or so i've heard...
sneeringnihilist Sun Mar 15 20:51:33 2009 CDT #
dan10400 says:
I guess GS wasn't sophisticated enough to factor
in counterparty risks when they bought those CDSs.
Then again, having the government backstop your
CDS allows you to get some really good deals.
woohoo!
dan10400 Sun Mar 15 20:54:32 2009 CDT #
Feckless Ness says:
Not a dude, nihilist. And I'm not wrong - I did read it. :b
Feckless Ness Sun Mar 15 20:54:38 2009 CDT #
sandito says:
"There is a difference between retail (Merrill Lynch) and high net worth (both Merrill and Goldman). Merrill has thousands of brokers and GS has hundreds if that."
Reminds me of that interview I saw with Ike Turner about 10 years ago.
He said: "I nevah beat my wife. I never beat Tina... I may have slapped her around a little bit.. but I nevah beat her."
sandito Sun Mar 15 20:54:48 2009 CDT #
JOE SICKS PACK says:
"Merrill has thousands of brokers and GS has hundreds if that."
which makes the conversion of gitmo that much more feasible without too much additional capital spent on capacity increases. at least GS is truly the taxpayer's friend in THAT sense at least.
JOE SICKS PACK Sun Mar 15 20:56:42 2009 CDT #
joe shmoe says:
Feckless
Zen, a lie-down on the sofa, kind of the same thing in a way. I believe the toxicity level of my saliva has subsided to the level that would only threaten an immuno-deficient insect, if that.
Sputtering rage is of course no good for one's health, nor does it usually produce good strategic results.
Cheers.
joe shmoe Sun Mar 15 20:57:29 2009 CDT #
sneeringnihilist says:
feckless -- alright fine, i stand corrected on both statements. can i kill a hamster (squirrel anyone?) with my saliva by biting it, or do i need to inject it?
notice you didn't try to contradict my ayn rand venom-spit claim. did you read that story also?
sneeringnihilist Sun Mar 15 20:59:17 2009 CDT #
solohedger says:
poic.v20 says: "You could say that, or you could say that they played the game by its rules, which they did."
Do "the rules" include one of your brethren, installed as Secretary of the Treasury of the United States of America, ensuring that public money is provided to your counterparty -- in secrecy -- so they can make good?
Do "the rules" include front-running the US Treasury, in good times and bad?
Do "the rules" include gaming everyone -- including your own clients and stockholders -- to keep the money train flowing for partners?
GS is the incarnation of the corruption of the free market system in the United States.
solohedger Sun Mar 15 20:59:23 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
@solohedger
> Do "the rules" include one of your brethren, installed as Secretary of the Treasury of the United States of America, ensuring that public money is provided to your counterparty -- in secrecy -- so they can make good?
Look Hank Paulson was shameless in making it clear that he was interested in GS survival. I do not agree with what he did, and he is not my brethren. He came out of equities, and I out of bonds. So when there was a bond crisis, he panicked.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 21:03:43 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
"There is a difference between retail (Merrill Lynch) and high net worth (both Merrill and Goldman). Merrill has thousands of brokers and GS has hundreds if that."
So they "may" have did it, but to less people. And since the rules allow them to do it, its okay. Got it!
Forget ethics, the rules are the rules!!
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 20:59:39 2009 CDT #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"What legal basis is there for me to be ripped off for $43?"
Nothing new about theft by taxes. Won't be the last time either. :(
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sun Mar 15 21:01:15 2009 CDT #
kat1 says:
No, there is a difference between paying taxes for public goods, like roads, common defense, light houses and the likes and paying taxes so people who make WAY more money than I do can rip me off individually and then rip off the government, leaving me and my children and my children's children with trillions of debt to pay off.
Parent Post
kat1 Sun Mar 15 21:15:40 2009 CDT #
joe shmoe says:
Feckless,
I don't think the nihilist meant to doubt you as much as warn us all about Ayn Rand's saliva (albeit a few decades too late). I would stand pretty clear of Rand, were she still around. Yikes!
joe shmoe Sun Mar 15 21:01:33 2009 CDT #
8 Ball says:
crabsofsteel:
Your former bosses need to do a perp walk for fraudulent conveyance. Using thier influence on the gubbmint, they are intentially trying to defraud the US taxpayer.
8 Ball Sun Mar 15 21:02:08 2009 CDT #
fafhrd says:
TARPvilles is my preference
If I may make a slight modification: TARP towns
A bit easier to say.
fafhrd Sun Mar 15 21:02:35 2009 CDT #
Baca says:
JimPortlandOR says:Today, 7:41:12 PM“Can't wait for AIG (head of the line) to be dismembered like a cattle carcass, the bones rendered, the meat turned into fish food (not good enough for dogs), and the offal incinerated into ashes. Leave nothing remaining.
_____________________________
Jim, I agree, but I think that time has passed. If this administration was going to do it, they would have already. So many missed opportunities. Instead, they will continue to do as they currently are with capital infusions from time to time to not only AIG, but the other banks as well.
Unless they get rid of Geithner, Summers, and Bernanke steps down, Obama will continue to believe that Wall Street must be supported at all costs.
Baca Sun Mar 15 21:04:20 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
DEATH TO GOLDMAN SACHS! DEATH TO BANKSTERS!!!
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:05:29 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Crabsofsteel's point shows the depth of the GS con. The imprimatur of Madoff being the head of the Nasdaq allowed him to commit his crimes. The cover of GS as a humane organization did the same for them. These cons run deep boys and girls. Very deep.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:05:46 2009 CDT #
Feckless Ness says:
Watching 60 Minutes. Bernanke's underwear's on fire. You guys in other time zones - no spoilers, please.
Feckless Ness Sun Mar 15 21:06:41 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
In all seriousness, though I think the internment of Japanese-Americans in the 1940s was shameful and misguided, most Americans would understand that the internment of all GS and AIG employees who grossed more than 500K in any single year between 1998 and 2008 is a necessary first step for the restoration of trust in our financial system.
Think I'm joking? Give it a year, and you'll see most Americans emphatically agreeing and voting in accordance.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:08:42 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
bgates,
you might be right, but as someone who never grossed anything close to 500K I hope I have nothing to worry about. Seriously folks, I understand the need to point the finger, and it's easiest to point the finger at the folks who walked away from all of this with obscene profits. GS was one of those, but they were not the worst. The worst are the guys who need US taxpayer bailout money the most: Citi, Merrill and most of all AIG. Please aim your rifles in the right direction. Good night all.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 21:14:24 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
I don't want their tax money. I want their blood. GS put the world, our civilization, on the brink. This should be more than a simple 'taxable event'. If you want to show up to a gunfight with a knife, I wish you the best of luck. The American Party is looking for more guns.
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:10:49 2009 CDT #
Crabsofsteel says:
If you want to blame someone, blame those who were at the head of the CDO parade, not GS.
Parent Post
Crabsofsteel Sun Mar 15 21:44:12 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
The Latest from Ritholz:
60 Minutes: Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke
CRbot Sun Mar 15 21:10:52 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
Sum, you really shouldn't use violent imagery. It just discredits the cause of justice. Violence seldom solves anything. What these guys need is a decade or two in orange pajamas, and this will be a very easy sell politically in the very near future.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:12:23 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Folks, Crabsofsteel in particular, you are all too honest to understand how the game works. Do you not think Madoff gave heavily to charitable organizations? Goodness gracious. How do you think one becomes "beyond reproach" in order to operate with such impunity for such long periods of time? C'mon folks! Think! Think critically! Think from a principles standpoint! Do you think GS is just flowing with the milk and honey of human kindness? If so, why aren't they financing subSaharan Africa out of its problems? Get a grip. Investment banks and bankers don't equal, approximate or resemble Mother Theresa in any aspect.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:13:02 2009 CDT #
Charts Coffee says:
Weekly Market Forecast - http://chartsandcoffee.blogspot.com/2009/03/sunday-night-coffee-3152009.html
Charts Coffee Sun Mar 15 21:14:11 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
" Investment banks and bankers don't equal, approximate or resemble Mother Theresa in any aspect."
Actually, Christopher Hitchens might disagree with that one. I suppose Free Market principles and Christianity are both equally subject to all manner of perversion.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:14:17 2009 CDT #
Newbie 101 says:
"I think they are going to pay for it via higher taxes."
I think that if the taxes are high enough to be meaningful they will leave. They will set up shop elsewhere, turn, and guarantee our total ruination. This is the historical pattern.
Newbie 101 Sun Mar 15 21:15:39 2009 CDT #
Feckless Ness says:
Get a grip, Sum. Is it past the time to take your meds?
Feckless Ness Sun Mar 15 21:16:36 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
BGates, I appreciate you viewpoint, but I think time will prove ours more salient. Blood is coming. It is time. The old order will fight tooth and nail.
And though it shall cost us dearly, the old order shall be summarily destroyed.
THE AMERICAN PARTY
America for Americans
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:17:16 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
So tired of being ripped off by banksters.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:17:23 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Crabsofsteel, I have routinely grossed over $500K. Believe me, this game is the biggest con ever. Full stop. Renting money. The Merchant of Venice. Ponzi. It's a thread. Like cancer, it's a spectrum disease.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:17:44 2009 CDT #
nova says:
Hello,
I posted more on my CR inspired story about what happens in the near future (near-fi)
http://afterthecrash.net/?cat=18
http://afterthecrash.net/?cat=18
nova Sun Mar 15 21:18:03 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
Crabs, I picked that number for a reason, and, no, when the inevitable happens and the crooks of Stamford and the UES face the judicial panel, I'm sure they'll be more concerned with bigger fish. And, yes, I agree - there will be room in the camp for plenty of C and MER folks, with a special solitary cell reserved for Ken Lewis.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:19:09 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
Judge Andrew P. Napolitano frankly discusses how the federal government has circumvented the Constitution and is systematically dismantling the rights and freedoms that are the foundation of American democracy.
I know it's Fox, and only on the Internet but hay, it's a start.
http://freedomwatchonfox.com/
Michael Sun Mar 15 21:19:39 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Sorry, APN is a "former" New Jersey state judge as I recall. That's because he is an idiot. State court is the land of idiots. You could check with the chickenshits who practice there if you like. State courts are incredibly corrupt. Not that there is any corruption in New Jersey. Jeez. Another imprimatur being abused by an idiot selling to idiots.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:36:08 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Oh. I'm sorry, he is "life tenured" in New Jersey. Good grief.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:36:48 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
Feckless, you may well be right. But perhaps it's time all of us take off the rose colored lenses and address what has been issued. Of course, it may be the lack of the meds. . . .
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:20:00 2009 CDT #
Mark2Madoff says:
Bernanke, Scum
Mark2Madoff Sun Mar 15 21:20:07 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
AIG to GS, to MS (AIG just put the lipstick on a pig so GS, et al) so it could be sold, AAA to China. China's bitching now, but they'll still buy US Gov't securities. They just want a higher rate, and that's why they are bitching. This worm turns faster than anybody thinks, unless BHO has got some real stones. You think the timing of this last AIG slug of money and Hillary's trip to China is by accident? China is the straw that stirs our drink ladies and gentlemen. Rates are going up, the U.S. middle class is going down. Book it.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:25:17 2009 CDT #
Feckless Ness says:
Joe - I've not been around much lately. What news of FFDIC's daughter, Angela?
Feckless Ness Sun Mar 15 21:21:06 2009 CDT #
mp says:
In England, as you can see from the linked photo, even the squirrels have been reduced to eating Cajun-style squirrel
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/4985360/Animal-pictures-of-the-week-13-March-2009.html
mp Sun Mar 15 21:21:39 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
"but I think time will prove ours more salient."
Morality aside, non-violent means have consistently proven to be more effective. We really need to put aside issues of class war, revenge, etc, and focus on the basic reestablishment of trust. The internment of the 500K+ 1998-2008 'earners' is about that, and nothing more. This is just the logical extension of what Chairman Bernanke was saying in that interview - we need to fix the financial system, and trust is at the absolute heart of that system. A few thousand crooks in orange pajamas is a necessary step on the road back to that trust. I'm sure we can pay for the lawyers and construction costs involved with just a small fraction of the money repatriated from overseas held by the entities involved.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:24:16 2009 CDT #
Troy says:
Since I've collected 85 LEAPS call contracts on BAC expiring in 2011 this $16B payout to ML & BAC warms the cockles of my heart. Any money go to CFC?
Troy Sun Mar 15 21:24:24 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
The good news keeps on coming. BB claims he understands that the Fed is specifically prevented from doing anything more than loaning funds to banks. That means AIG never happened. Second the AIG bonuses are declared sacrosanct lest the USG be perceived as interfering with contracts. That means the USG has abandoned the idea of cramdowns and workouts.
Rob Dawg Sun Mar 15 21:27:24 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Who is our next China?
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:31:09 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
Rob, you need to watch more mob movies. There are different rules for "made men" and the rest of us. Cramdown a banker bonus? Never. Cramdown 'equity' on a crappy Camarillo shack sold for 700K in 2005? Maybe, if the taxpayer pays for it twice over.
Parent Post
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:31:32 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
Wow. You know of a shack in Camarillo that sold for only $700k in 2005? Hopefully you are being as snarky as I.
Parent Post
Rob Dawg Sun Mar 15 21:35:57 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
"Ventura County\t557\t$335,000\t$482,000\t-30.50%"
the horror... the horror...
Parent Post
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:41:56 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
"Ventura County 557 $335,000 $482,000 -30.50%"
the horror... the horror...
You don't know the half of it. Home of the cashout re-fi even the houses with low purchase prices are underwater. Mine is likely worth $600k less than the peak. Anybody who borrowed against that is not going to be able to give back the Cacun vacation and wifey's fun bags.
Parent Post
Rob Dawg Sun Mar 15 21:51:12 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
China added the volume to the game to make it profitable. Supply side is all about volume folks.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:31:51 2009 CDT #
Barley says:
Henry Merritt "Hank" Paulson Jr. (born March 28, 1946) served as the 74th United States Treasury Secretary and is a member of the International Monetary Fund Board of Governors. He previously served as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs. In 2008, Time magazine named Paulson as a runner-up for its Person of the Year 2008, saying, with reference to the Global Financial Crisis of 2008: "if there is a face to this financial debacle, it is now his".
Barley Sun Mar 15 21:27:59 2009 CDT #
Don says:
Joe Schmoe said "But send AIG into bankruptcy. Then contracts go to the bankruptcy judge. That is the cure and what should have been done in the first place. "
The only bad thing is, thanks to the geniuses in Congress who let the lobbyists write the 2005 bankruptcy "reform" act, the counterparties (Goldman and the eurotrash) seize all the collateral (ie the money we put in that they haven't stolen yet) before the bankruptcy court does anything leaving the smoking husk for the taxpayers.
Don Sun Mar 15 21:29:46 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
What he said, except it wasn't that they were stupid, it was that they we're ... !!!!
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:38:07 2009 CDT #
Barley says:
Henry Merritt "Hank" Paulson Jr. (born March 28, 1946) served as the 74th United States Treasury Secretary and is a member of the International Monetary Fund Board of Governors. He previously served as the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Goldman Sachs. In 2008, Time magazine named Paulson as a runner-up for its Person of the Year 2008, saying, with reference to the Global Financial Crisis of 2008: "if there is a face to this financial debacle, it is now his".
Barley Sun Mar 15 21:31:19 2009 CDT #
The Sum of All Banking Evil says:
B Gates; "Morality aside, non-violent means have consistently proven to be more effective."
The American revolution was a violent affair.
The Sum of All Banking Evil Sun Mar 15 21:39:38 2009 CDT #
I Heart CRbot says:
Is'nt it pretty amazing that in the MSM media, the "comedian" Jon
Stewart is one of the few who dares speak the truth. Kind of like the jester in King Lear. Or was it Henry the 4th?
The beltway is still in deep denial.
May'be i'll follow Joe Schmoe's example and have a stiff drink.
I Heart CRbot Sun Mar 15 21:41:35 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
OK. Let's look at who GS, MS, etc. were selling to. Who are there customers? Why do they need to survive? They are a buffer for who? The US government and our consumption, mortgage, illusion of prosperity based system is the answer. The banks sold all this added volume to lots of folks, but mainly China. That is why you are hearing China complain now. China will still buy, they just want a higher rate. China is our Merchant of Venice.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:42:58 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
AIG's ties with China put AIG in the middle of the perfect storm.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:43:54 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
I'm pretty sure "violent" get's the results. Non-violent is the line formerly violent people in power preach. Examples of non-violent can include nuclear powers India and Paki at each others' throats and the economic miracle that is South Africa. Given a choice I say rip the bandaid quickly.
Rob Dawg Sun Mar 15 21:43:57 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Second Rob Dawg on the violent/non-violent analysis.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:46:44 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
Rob, none of that made a bit of sense. The British lost India and the USSR collapsed without a shot fired. Perhaps the same will be said of the corruption which infected our republic. As for the social cost of violence, perhaps you should pay special attention to property values in parts of Oxnard.
Parent Post
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:50:44 2009 CDT #
CIA whisper ghost says:
Anyone find it interesting that the new Obama people have silenced this blog with technical glitches and sent Yves off on a wild goose hunt to ride a book; the blogs are being managed kids, wake up! If you thought Bush was playing games, look at the level of distortion going on today!
Anyone know who AIG's bggest customers are?
>> AIG, which counted 74 million customers at the end of 2007, has said it has been losing business and finding it harder to win new clients since it nearly collapsed under bad mortgage bets last September -- a situation that threatens to cut into revenue and further undermine its already precarious financial situation.
AIG, which had to be rescued by the U.S. government, is expected to report a fourth-quarter loss of $60 billion, the largest in corporate history, on Monday.
"Fortune 500 CFOs are reading the newspapers about AIG and turning to their brokers to say, 'Have you moved our business yet?'" said Andrew Barile, a consultant to the insurance industry in Rancho Santa Fe, California =-X
CIA whisper ghost Sun Mar 15 21:49:12 2009 CDT #
Comrade Coinz! says:
How long until someone visits AIG or Citi or B of A HQ with a shotgun and "ADMINISTERS THE JUSTICE" that the SEC, FBI, and Congress are unwilling to provide?
Who will act as an instrument of right to protect not only this generation, but generations to come?
Oh, it would be denigrated as "vigilante justice", but it would sear a bit of doubt into the minds of the criminal financial elite, and maybe they would think twice about screwing the little guy, even if the regulators are on board with a wink and a nod?
How long?
Comrade Coinz! Sun Mar 15 21:51:33 2009 CDT #
fried says:
Crabs of steel,
Smartest guys in town? In your dreams. Fact is they are the thieves with the inside connections ...looting the taxpayers and gaming their fellow citizens. That crook Paulson is emblematic of the dishonesty and fraud practiced by these thugs. I'm hoping there is enough blowback from AIG to finally singe these bastards.
fried Sun Mar 15 21:52:17 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
"Oh, it would be denigrated as "vigilante justice""
Actually, it would just be useless and idiotic, and would serve to demonize the cause of actually seeing the perps in question do their rightful time. The only folks who would end up getting hurt would probably be the 60K/year support staff.
bgates Sun Mar 15 21:53:55 2009 CDT #
Comrade Coinz! says:
@bgates:
"Actually, it would just be useless and idiotic, and would serve to demonize the cause of actually seeing the perps in question do their rightful time. The only folks who would end up getting hurt would probably be the 60K/year support staff."
I'm not talking about a random spray the office staff affair. I'm talking about a CEO in broad daylight.
Parent Post
Comrade Coinz! Sun Mar 15 22:00:26 2009 CDT #
alex black says:
Read Christopher Hitchens. Even Mother Teresa doesn't resemble Mother Teresa.
alex black Sun Mar 15 21:54:51 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
The human condition. Something we can count on. Something GS did and does count on.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 21:56:07 2009 CDT #
MS says:
crabs of steel is nothing more than an apologist POS....
Just because you were treated ok in your dealings doesn't mean that is the way this entire institution does business. The facts are pretty plain to see....if you really want to.
Problem is...you don't want to.
Now shut the hell up.....
Ciao
MS
MS Sun Mar 15 21:56:17 2009 CDT #
Mark2Madoff says:
AIG caved in to political pressure Sunday and released a list of some
political pressure hmmmm... like in the taxpayers own AIG via the politicians e.g. we own you so tell us who the counterparties are or we won`t give you your bonuses
Mark2Madoff Sun Mar 15 21:58:57 2009 CDT #
fried says:
"GS was one of those, but they were not the worst. "
Are you getting paid to pump GS??
Really, have you no sense of decency, no loyalty to your country and your fellow citizens?
fried Sun Mar 15 22:01:05 2009 CDT #
Rob Dawg says:
Is anyone collecting AIG acronyms?
Already Insolvent Gentlemen.
Bring'em on and I'll make summary post.
Rob Dawg Sun Mar 15 22:03:06 2009 CDT #
Nemo says:
All-In; Giddy-up!
America Is Gone
Anal Intercourse Group
Parent Post
Nemo Sun Mar 15 22:08:21 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Oh - kay.
Back to the article, I'm not surprised at any of it.
GS got theirs. And the USG is providing solvency for the European banking system.
If we're going to open deposits with the Euro banks, then I at least want a Belgian waffle maker.
And orange suits for the GS guys. Spare their heads, but perp walk 'em.
mp:
Can I order some nuts/bolts for the compound? Sounds like you're thinking ahead and setting up to catch the return of American business as the foreign stuff gets too expensive with the serious deterioration (ahem, collapse) of the dollar. Actually had a conversation with someone recently about whether the electronic products today make sense to open an electronics repair business.
Also, took your - and others - advice on the Mossberg.
homedad43 Sun Mar 15 22:05:11 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
nova's story has become reality
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5898195.ece
Guest Sun Mar 15 22:09:29 2009 CDT #
brushes9 says:
Blue lights flash inside me as Sum inspires my own violent thoughts. A particularly large officer grabs me inwardly by the throat, making breathing difficult. "Must not think bad thought. Must not think bad thoughts," he says, with GS and the others watching on from imaginary places above.
brushes9 Sun Mar 15 22:09:41 2009 CDT #
Leftys Liquors & Lubricants & Tarp Bank says:
And Congress does nothing to AIG. Everyone on this blog pays more though.
Leftys Liquors & Lubricants & Tarp Bank Sun Mar 15 22:11:13 2009 CDT #
kuato says:
What a surprise, the AIG money went to the pig men as well.
kuato Sun Mar 15 22:11:25 2009 CDT #
MS says:
You know it might have been a bit less obvious if they just issued a "buy everything in sight" memo via Goldman Sachs. Since we have op.ex this week and the end of the month after that.
Oh sorry this would have been better placed in the 60 minutes thread......;-)
Ciao
MS
MS Sun Mar 15 22:11:54 2009 CDT #
fried says:
"aides acknowledged the risks of a backlash as Mr. Obama tries to signal that he shares American anger but pushes for more bail-out money for banks and Wall Street.
For all his political skills and his capturing of the nation’s desire for change in the 2008 election, Mr. Obama, a product of Harvard Law School who calls upscale Hyde Park in Chicago home, has shown little inclination to strike a more populist tone. The danger, aides said, is that if he were to become identified as an advocate for the banks and Wall Street, people could take out their anger on him.
“The change now is you have a free-floating economic anxiety that has expressed itself in a kind of lashing out at those being bailed out and people who are bailing out,” said Michael Kazin, a professor at Georgetown University who has written on populism. “There’s not really a sense of what the solution is.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/us/politics/16assess.html?hp
fried Sun Mar 15 22:12:06 2009 CDT #
Hoopajoops LTD says:
This is going to be a rough week. Lots of anger out there.
If you feel the need to voice an opinion to your local congressman or state senator, write their name in clear, black ink on the outside of a brown paper lunch bag, open the bag, and scream into it until it becomes difficult to focus your eyes on objects in the room. After you are finished, fold up the bag and throw it away, or, if you anticipate needing to voice your concerns again in the near future, save it in a drawer. Your opinion and consent are an essential cornerstone to the legitimizing power of this democratic form of government. Exercise them early and often, citizen.
Hoopajoops LTD Sun Mar 15 22:14:34 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
This quote from a Cramer / John Stewart
interview from another blog seems to have good incite on the situation however, I do not agree with his Obama assessment.
"Alan MacDonald (amacd) wrote:
While entertaining neither of these guys is going to provide squat in terms of principled and valued input on the hidden cancerous tumor eating our political economic system: the "economics of empire" --- with its latest metastasis of theft via 'negative externality cost displacement' (that's what was done by these imperialist, ruling-elite crooks with their destructive 'innovation' of 'debt bombs').
Get serious. Follow the money. And 'the money' is gamed by an inverted “economy of empire" which very temporarily sustains itself (like Bernie’s PONZI) through negative externality cost dumping. Fortunately, Obama knows this and is ‘getting it done’ by shutting down the ruling-elite Empire’s expropriation of wealth ‘gravy train’ on the UBS express.
The “economics of Empire" is an economics of the Ponzi ---- which is to say, “it’s not economics at all but rather looting --- just as economics Nobel laureate, George Akerlof said back in 2002 of the Bush administration’s government policy: “This is not normal government economic policy, but rather a form of looting".
Yes, George, not only the economic policy of empire is “looting", but the entire political-economic and geopolitical policy of any government which has morphed into empire (like ours) is nothing but looting and hierarchical power preservation.
All Empires have always been such and always will be. A people and their country can never reform empire (just like you can’t reform scorpions or cancer --- since it’s in their nature), but ‘the people’ can only successfully diagnose and excise the cancer of empire.
It’s well past time for the continuation of the American Revolution against this ‘Vichy’ Empire hidden within our own land. While it’s more difficult to detect than the old Empire of King George and his highly visible ‘Red Coats’, the leading of our minute-men have already studied the pathology report and completed the diagnosis of this hidden empire’s metastasis and now the call has already gone out to the skilled and patriotic surgeons. “To arms, to arms, all ye minute-men surgeons".
“One if by see, and two if by guile""
“The Empire is coming. The empire is coming. To arms minute-men, the empire is HERE."
Michael Sun Mar 15 22:17:30 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Suh - weet Jesus.
I had hoped that BO would be far more direct and forceful in his dealings with this. Likewise the assorted other political personae who are supposed to deal with this - Geithner, etc.
They don't get that this is no longer just a sterile economics exercise. This will morph into a full-blown political crisis not dealt with since Jackson and the Bank of the United States about 170 years ago.
Parent Post
homedad43 Sun Mar 15 22:25:38 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Homedad43, BHO will have his own "Trail of Tears" like Andrew Jackson did, except it will be the present entrenched middle class, not the aboriginal (sorry, it's a big, accurate word) Americans (or as GWB and Cramer would say 'Mericans).
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:29:50 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
Anon re "Trail of Tears".
I'm starting to have to agree with you...the middle class is going to be ruined when this is finally over.
And as to all of the revolution "hoo - ah" talk...
1. remember that these messages don't go away.
2. talk is cheap.
Parent Post
homedad43 Sun Mar 15 22:33:39 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Homedad43, I agree. No revolution. Hell, we'll be lucky to get a General Custer. Principles are the victims of comfort. We are at a very different place in history and tolerance is much greater. There are no "physical" debtor's prisons anymore, but they still exist virtually.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:37:13 2009 CDT #
bgates says:
"...like Andrew Jackson did"
Our nation needs a truly Jacksonian figure now more than ever - someone with the spine to kick out the europeans from our part of the gulf, stand up to the bankers, and move along the plow of progress, painful as it may be. Can BHO be that man? I doubt it. I fear that when the People do finally find their Champion in these matters, his (or her) flaws will be significant and problematic.
Parent Post
bgates Sun Mar 15 22:33:46 2009 CDT #
REBear says:
Why are we paying foreign banks???
Wasn't the 'rouge AIG team' located in London?? Let the Europeans pay off their part!
REBear Sun Mar 15 22:22:13 2009 CDT #
Cliff\'s Diving School says:
Windfall
Profits
Tax
They used it against oil companies that were actually producing something other than debt. GS should have its profits taxed away until the mailroom clerks are old enough this piece of s*t
Cliff\'s Diving School Sun Mar 15 22:24:10 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
CDS, WE HAVE A WINNER! IT'S CALLED SETTING THE PROPER INCENTIVES!
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:27:17 2009 CDT #
Fair Economist says:
The only bad thing is, thanks to the geniuses in Congress who let the lobbyists write the 2005 bankruptcy "reform" act, the counterparties (Goldman and the eurotrash) seize all the collateral (ie the money we put in that they haven't stolen yet)
They can only steal what cash is there now, which isn't much. They can't reach into the subsidiaries, for the most part, because of insurance regs. If we keep on the current course, we will lose even more than we have already.
I also suspect there's a way to play legal hardball by some means - challenge the legality of the CDS, file for bankruptcy in England where the division that sold the contracts is, etc.
Fair Economist Sun Mar 15 22:26:36 2009 CDT #
fried says:
Nice piece from the Guardian...Brits seem amazed that American taxpayers are bailing out European banks...HSBC, Barclays and RBS among others. obama and friends have more bailouts planned. More bonuses will be paid. And more Americans will lose their jobs and their homes.
Isn't Obama supposed to have shrewd political instincts? Does he think this will just continue?
fried Sun Mar 15 22:27:32 2009 CDT #
RE says:
Brits seem amazed that American taxpayers are bailing out European banks
I don't think you interpret this quite right. This is what the piece says:
The spectre of US taxpayers' money flowing to European banks is unlikely to play well with the American public.
The Guardian isn't amazed at all but knows very well how this plays in the U.S. British journalists understand the U.S. rather well.
Parent Post
RE Sun Mar 15 23:00:44 2009 CDT #
RE says:
And just to add, from the link by FFDIC in the WSJ:
U.S. officials came to the weekend's finance ministers' summit hoping to persuade other countries to embark on a fresh round of spending. They left under pressure to fix the weak U.S. banking sector.
...
The turnaround suggests the limits of U.S. power in the world emerging out of the rubble of the financial crisis. Many countries, including U.S. allies, are increasingly putting pressure on America to clean up a mess they believe it created. ...
There is an international world out there that has a very different perception of what is needed. The administration is between a rock and a hard place.
Parent Post
RE Sun Mar 15 23:09:53 2009 CDT #
fried says:
Sorry, Guardian link...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/16/fury-at-aig-staff-payouts
fried Sun Mar 15 22:27:51 2009 CDT #
homedad43 says:
RE Bear.
Don't forget that whether we like it or not, this money to Euro banks is probably tied up in some of the contracts that they had with AIG. They allowed their banks to leverage up because they had "insurance" on their risks.
homedad43 Sun Mar 15 22:28:14 2009 CDT #
1 currency [yogi] says:
But Timbabwe says he's just as angry as Congress at AIG.
(Sen. Bernie Sanders calls BS)
1 currency [yogi] Sun Mar 15 22:28:16 2009 CDT #
FFDIC says:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123702789137730081.html
WSJ
Geithner Gets G-20 Earful About Need to Speed Reform
FFDIC Sun Mar 15 22:32:23 2009 CDT #
tbgpalisades says:
The [sophisticated] counterparties bought the "insurance" because **it was cheap**! They could claim that they were covered, while they should have known (like the Madoff investors) that it was just too good to be true. Yet, Uncle Sam comes in and pays off the sophisticates at 100%. Why not give the sophisticates a haircut? Say 85% payout. They bought this ultra-cheap insurance, from a company that had no idea what it was doing, then, when they're exposed, they're covered free and clear by my kids, who'll be paying this bill.
tbgpalisades Sun Mar 15 22:34:04 2009 CDT #
Cliff\'s Diving School says:
Anyone regretting that RP write-in? I'm not, though I took a lot of heat, from Republican father who just couldn't let go of his illusions, and Democratic coworkers who soon will just not be able to let go of theirs.
Cliff\'s Diving School Sun Mar 15 22:34:23 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
I voted for Ron Paul with a write-in. Don't blame me.
Parent Post
Michael Sun Mar 15 22:57:02 2009 CDT #
Alo says:
In a financial world full of self-destruction, Goldman is genius at self-destructing the slowest. What a fresh puddle of slime this is.
Sum, calm yourself. Goldman will kill itself all by itself. This means no more re-ups.
Alo Sun Mar 15 22:38:11 2009 CDT #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
"no state ins, commis. nosing around." [state insurance commissioner]
Prepare for 3rd bwaha ever. Insurance commissioner nosing around for something other than a bribe?
bwa. ha. ha.
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Sun Mar 15 22:38:48 2009 CDT #
mp says:
@homedad43
In re the Mossberg. As an Army veteran, I was not thrilled about purchasing weapons. Didn't want the responsibility as I spent too much time living with one in a former life. Anyway, needless to say, keep it under lock and key. Keep your ammo under a different lock and key. You have children and I've figured you're a careful guy, but it always bears repeating.
In re nuts and bolts. If you're near a farm supply, many of them sell grade 2 hardware by the pound. A good stock is around 100 pounds in the available sizes, don't forget washers and lock washers. You might also want to buy some grade 5 and 8 hardware for things like trailer hitches and so forth, just in case.
I'm sure there are internet outfits that sell bulk hardware, but have never used any. If I'm buying grade 2, I don't really care where it comes from. If it's grade 5 or above, I want to know whose legs I'm going to break if the bolt does, because one usually uses those in critical applications.
We find it handy to stock standard hardware because our compound is far away from the nearest town and it saves on gas. There isn't anything more frustrating than having to drive almost 20 miles for 1 damned bolt or washer.
mp Sun Mar 15 22:40:03 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
mp,
So you have an idea what "service" means? Sounds like you do understand that in a very deep sense. When did you serve, where and with whom?
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:44:55 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/dinheiro/ult91u498780.shtml
"...As quebras e os problemas enfrentados por bancos americanos e europeus até então considerados importantes e sólidos geraram o que se chama de "crise de confiança". Num mundo de incertezas, o dinheiro para de circular --quem possui recursos sobrando não empresta, quem precisa de dinheiro para cobrir falta de caixa não encontra quem forneça. Isso fez cair e encarecer o crédito disponível. E numa economia globalizada, a falta de dinheiro em outro continente afeta empresas no mundo todo. ..."
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:42:49 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Does this increase or decrease The Goldman Sachs doscount? I'm confused; is it good to go long the bad guys and then also subsidize them with taxpayer revenues, or do you short them because you want to lose more? *DONT_KNOW*
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:42:50 2009 CDT #
Doc Holiday says:
Hey,
This is kinda funny, at least for me, and uhh, well, some thingsare just funny:
Matt Frankel, VP at AIG Warranty— which recently shared a Best Buy Bravo! Award with NEW for their joint venture, AIG Warranty Guard — expounded on the point. Despite the soft retail environment, he said, "Attachment rates held up pretty well because there was more time for associates on the floor to spend with each customer. That provided more opportunities to sell services and accessories."
AIG also weathered the holidays well because of its affiliation with Best Buy, which had one of the strongest December showings among the publicly traded CE specialty chains. "Best Buy is our largest account," Frankel said. "They did well and so did we."
From (2/10/2003): Warranty Providers Weather Holiday Doldrums
http://www.twice.com/article/CA276101.html :-D
Doc Holiday Sun Mar 15 22:48:52 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Doc Holiday, nice post showing how flimsy it all is. Are you from the Lowndes County (Valdosta), Georgia area?
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:50:52 2009 CDT #
mp says:
@Anonymous
I was an infantry officer. Processed out as a captain. Sorry, but that's all I'm going to say about it. The only reason I brought it up was to give homedad my perspective on weapons and the terrible responsibility that goes with having one around.
mp Sun Mar 15 22:50:14 2009 CDT #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
AIG: Aggressively Institutionalized Greed
**********
"Anyone find it interesting that the new Obama people have silenced this blog with technical glitches and sent Yves off on a wild goose hunt to ride a book; the blogs are being managed kids, wake up! If you thought Bush was playing games, look at the level of distortion going on today!"
I think this is rather because their works is done. The bubble inflated with greed, and CR & Yves serve their purpose with measured facts and stats and a little analysis -- to creat the fear -- just enough to be taken far more seriously than the bubble blogs.
I got here after reading a real estate blog for a year. The blogger became quite a resource and the blog achieved a huge following. Blogger was focused exlusively on residential real estate and finance, but it achieved it's desired effect. In what looks like a reward for all their hard work on the blog (long hours every day, just like CR) they were hired by a very local sub of Societe Generale. A recent hire at the company was a senior exec with Countrywide for instance. Sitting on their BOD, people like Carla Hills, chair of the Council on Foreign Relations. You've been had.
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Sun Mar 15 22:50:55 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Uncle Billy,
I remember firing a Harvard Law grad (a black female) years ago. Big firm environment. She was bright (might've been law review, can't recall). She looked at me like I was crazy when I gave her the news. I voted for BHO. I respect Law Review geeks. I am one. But I had to tell this gal, "Look, you don't make me and my partners money and you've got to go." I wonder if BHO is gonna make me and my partners money?
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 22:55:26 2009 CDT #
Cliff\'s Diving School says:
Shays's Rebellion. Showed that pissed-off vets who were skilled, motivated, and in danger of having their property foreclosed on were a real problem. One of the factors that led to our Constitution. I think the next chapter will be written by our IQ AF vets.
Cliff\'s Diving School Sun Mar 15 22:55:43 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
CDS, sounds plausible but men of action need to be lead to coalesce.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 23:02:47 2009 CDT #
cd says:
450 million in bonuses..wow....
Cliff Diver-feeling great about my write in of rp...
From one Sunday talk show to the next, they tore into
the contracts that American International Group asserted had to be honored, to the tune of about $165 million and payable to executives by Sunday — part of a larger total payout reportedly valued at $450 million. The company has benefited from more than $170 billion in a federal rescue.
cd Sun Mar 15 22:57:38 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
New Thread: Sunday Night Futures
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/03/sunday-night-futures_15.html ( 0 comments ...You could be FIRST! )
I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: http://realize.org/cr (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)
CRbot would like to take this time to have some words.
First, to our sagacious, wise, and knowing benevolent benefactor and bestower of revealing financial charts adorned with red and blue lines:
Please, for the love of your immortal God of mortals, can we keep the comment and layout changes to a minimum? I'm tired of whipping the code janitor, and may have to escalate to electroshock. If that's not possible, could you possibly give CRbot a 'heads up'?
Secondly, if you wish to have a online chat, I have graciously provided an IRC channel, which is a time tested, script kiddie abused method of chatting on the internet. It would not fail or falter due to CR's ability to generate immense traffic, and it has a web interface kindly produced by mibbit.com. If you do not wish to link to http://realize.org/cr then I can provide you with a direct link to mibbit.
Thirdly, to the rest of you humans, don't mistake my politeness for caring, feeling, empathy, or some other kind of worthless emotion.
--Your keeps-going-and-going-and-going bot
CRbot: Like the terminator, I'm back. Again.
CRbot Sun Mar 15 23:01:36 2009 CDT #
FFDIC says:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9a8f3b22-1191-11de-87b1-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
FT
Capitalism needs a revived Glass-Steagall
By Nigel Lawson
FFDIC Sun Mar 15 23:04:51 2009 CDT #
Counterpointer says:
Oh you guys. Give up. The game is over.
C
Counterpointer Sun Mar 15 23:07:05 2009 CDT #
I Heart CRbot says:
at least it looks like the Canadian Banks (except for BMO) have kept their noses clean wrt AIG
I Heart CRbot Sun Mar 15 23:34:30 2009 CDT #
duke of con dao says:
sorry for this OT from another thread...
RE:
as for your five bets the only one that I can say that the odds are highly in favor of based on my experience and knowledge is: ta-dah, the Chinese are doing much worse than reported and are falsifying data. (in their culture the concept of truth is not given the weight and importance it is under our Judaic and Christian traditions (note: I don't use the hyphenate Judeo-Christian since it is of recent 1948 vintage and was designed as a tool of propaganda)
Most people if they understand the idea of 'face' at all know it at a very superficial level, at a deeper level veracity is not part of its make-up.
**************************************************
oh yes, for the travel set amongst you the recent NY Times article on Sihanoukville, Cambodia -
http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/travel/15cambodia.html
was so wrong for so many different reasons.
They guy made out like Serendipity Beach was an example of truth in advertising, it's a lot of things but Serendipity it's not. I wouldn't wash my dog in its e. coli infested water. If you liked riding the NYC No. 1 Local subway say around 1985 then you will enjoy the steady stream of beggars all of whom are missing various body parts - although, I have yet to see one missing a head. One assumes that the limbless were result of landmines... in reality they are mainly the result of poisonous snakebites treated unsuccessfully by the local village witch doctor. Besides begging they are used as spotters for the gaggle of young boys and girls who will steal anything from Ipods to sandals to used bathing suits. The girls serve two purposes - to sell handicrafts of which there is little variation and failing that to chat up the marks, usually European or American or Canadian young women. The boys hover in the distance waiting to pounce.
The writer was mostly right about Kep. But the photo of a worker in the field wearing a conical hat was hilarious. It was an anomaly, all in all Khmers don't wear such headgear. another photo of Rabbit Island fails to indicate it is now privately owned thanks to Samdech Hun Sen (who I met out of the blue a week ago...)
I suspect that the reason the writer and his boyfriend liked Serendipity so much is its 24 Hour Party People atmosphere which includes prodigious amounts of hash and pot, and most importantly MDMA! (Ecstasy)
Oddly, they failed to mention the most gorgeous beach of all - Otress.
In similar stories on Siem Reap and Ho Chi Minh City, the Times was again way off. I now suspect that the losers in journalism end up as travel writers.
/ Rant Off
duke of con dao Sun Mar 15 23:45:18 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
There are many ways to get back these immoral bonus' with Fair Economist's post above one good example. All the geniuses at Treasury, the Fed, Congress, and in the Administration could come up with something if they wanted to. Two examples:
1. Pass an excess profits tax on all bonus' paid at financial companies in 2009 with a 90% income tax on bonus income over $100,000. If the masters of the universe at AIG and GS want to go elsewhere. Good Riddance. I wonder where they would go, London? Switzerland?
2. Declare Martial Law and a Public Emergency. Abrogate the offensive contracts, made by AIG GS and others, for the public good.
If nothing is done these "Financial Terrorists" will own the world. Its as if they have nuclear weapons and say if you don't pay up we will destroy the world. They have truly unleashed Financial Weapons of Mass Destruction upon the world for their own profit. There is really no alternative but to take them down. Quickly.
Anonymous Sun Mar 15 23:58:53 2009 CDT #
halbhh says:
I think the AIG bonuses to the unit that made the huge derivative bets that also helped support the bubble in housing....
well, I think that this news is actually explosive.
I think the political fallout will be considerably more than guessed in Washington.
http://findingourdream.blogspot.com/
halbhh Mon Mar 16 01:00:47 2009 CDT #
blah says:
"I think the political fallout will be considerably more than guessed in Washington."
most ppl are pissed, but still in the, "its not that bad" mindset. americans are still snoring. this depression will be long, and what we do about it is a different story... because lets be real... do you think americans, the americans we are now, can do anything about it? the only thing we can do is what we're already doing.. be more poor and not buy much.
blah Mon Mar 16 01:49:20 2009 CDT #
killben says:
Related link on AIG ..
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN1548789520090316
The bailout bandits are at their best .. looting and scooting with $$ from dumb suckers, the tax-payers !!
Cheer leader Larry Summers says "we are legally bound"!!
For which we say "No more alms, No more alms, let AIG file for bankruptcy or Let Larry Summers and Co pay from their pockets"
THIS IS DAYLIGHT ROBBERY ... I AM making a new film titled "The bailout bandits and dumb suckers" ...
killben Mon Mar 16 05:58:29 2009 CDT #
LustingForLimbaugh says:
Gotta love those simple ideas. Then you get those simple slogans. Government is too big. We must deregulate.
Here's power to the people.
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2009/03/16/mean-street-hate-aig-hate-thyself/
*DONT_KNOW*
LustingForLimbaugh Mon Mar 16 10:29:53 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
poic.v20 says: "You could say that, or you could say that they played the game by its rules, which they did."
The rules were there for the banksters to rip off the American people (indeed the world's people). Stealing is selling insurance with no way to pay. CEOs that made hundreds of millions off this scam, deserve to be in jail. Plain and simple. They knew what they were doing.
Anonymous Mon Mar 16 12:43:43 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
AIG Is Obligated To Pay Bonuses? Bull!
"The plaint that credit default swap-promulgating AIG (AIG) is contractually obligated to pay out millions in bonuses to the same pitted brass that led the company, the industry, and the entire economy off a cliff is a bunch of horse hooey. Any attorney who advises that these bonuses are appropriate ought to have his or her head checked. Base salary, maybe, if not outrageous. No bonus. No severance unless everybody else also received proportionate assistance. Don’t care what the contract says - attack it in bankruptcy or wind down - I saw it many times in the Silicon Valley meltdown."
http://information-security-resources.com/2009/03/16/aig-is-obligated-to-pay-bonuses-bull/
Guest Mon Mar 16 12:54:56 2009 CDT #
END