Comments for G-20: No Call for Stimulus
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CRbot Sat Mar 14 07:27:19 2009 MST #
Hymns for the Lord says:
Kevin Drum seems to think Summers/Obama mean business but are going through the steps needed to make the bank takedown politically palatable to the masses:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/03/summers-brookings
Thoughts?
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Hymns for the Lord Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Anonymous says:
500b to the fdic, fdic taking a weekend off, I think this could be a set up to take down Citi, or BAC. they may have got wind and that is why they are saying they dont need govt money and are profitable.
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Anonymous Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Yoringe says:
Nice.. finally some part sanity....go EU
Yoringe Sat Mar 14 07:34:52 2009 MST #
Hymns for the Lord says:
I am beginning to see cracks in companies around Silicon Valley - with serious layoffs in bellwether divisions. People who never thought they'd be touched by the recession are now fretting.
At the same time, technology companies' stock prices and real estate markets in the better areas have not really capitulated.
It will be interesting to see if these are just lagging and will employment down or whether they can levitate long enough for the stimulus to carry them to the crest of the next wave.
Hymns for the Lord Sat Mar 14 07:38:19 2009 MST #
rich says:
There's a difference between the massive layoffs today and those of, say, early 80s or 90s. On every laid off desk today, there's a surplus PC and other assorted hardware sitting there long after the employee has been canned. Every desk! And in some cases, it's pretty new tech stuff.
Tech depended huge on education, government, white collar offices for contract shipments, and they are gone. This tech bust is every bit as bad as the last one, maybe longer, and that's why I still hold some QID and PSQ in my hedges.
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rich Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Comrade Scott (in Va) says:
I guess the Europeans are serious about getting some concessions on a new regulatory framework!
Just as their economy is somewhat more hardened against oil shocks, I expect they can politically tolerate higher structural unemployment better than we (or the UK) can.
Comrade Scott (in Va) Sat Mar 14 07:39:54 2009 MST #
punditry says:
ok mark to fantasy is now sop.
punditry Sat Mar 14 07:41:16 2009 MST #
PonziMonetixaCoruptiCapitalism says:
California to issue Lottery Bonds.
This may be the ultimate ponzi - serviced by future lottery receipt revenue.
when californians find that CalPERS , tiaa-cref, et al bought the bulk of this, my prediction is they'll just all try to move to mendocino county to be closer to the rarified air.
PonziMonetixaCoruptiCapitalism Sat Mar 14 07:50:48 2009 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
"he [Summers, carefully choosing his words] specifically said that the administration's response would be designed to insure that big banks "meet their commitments and lend on a substantial scale."
THIS alone is troubling in that the main thrust of the FedGov's policy cure-all is for more "consumer borrowing". It is apparent this administration is out of solutions. They never had a clue and still don't. Their ideas, remedies, and subsequent reactions are comparative to a comedic Chinese fire-drill without the water source. Once nations start falling, diplomacy will be replaced by outright rage and "finger-pointing" at US.
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 07:57:30 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Sorry I can't recall the source for this - it could have been a poster here, or something on another blog, but here it is:
Much of the discussion in the US about stimulus in the EU neglects to consider the already greater role of the state, pre-crisis, in Germany and France and other EU countries.
For example, one notable chunk of the US stimulus plan was extending unemployment benefits. But Germany and France already exceed the US's newly extended benefits.
Similarly, public infrastructure spending in the EU countries is already higher, much higher, than in the US. I suspect that budgeting more for infrastructure or maintenance in the EU countries can be done without needing the unbrella title of "stimulus," whereas in the US these sorts of social investments require the special justification of crisis.
I doubt those differences in the state's role in the economy and social welfare explain everything going on with the G 20, but I think they play a part.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 07:58:04 2009 MST #
Dirk van Dijk says:
Stimulus can either be in the form of higher spending or in the form of lower taxes. In the US, we have woefully underinvested in public infrastructure and safteynet. Not so in Europe. Perhaps the EU shhould be cutting taxes, say lowering the VAT by 2% might go a long way, and also might be acceptable to the right wing there. Yes tax cuts generally have less bang for the buck, but it depennds on the tax and the starting level of rates. Given the higher starting rates there, might have more effect. A VAT is a fairly regressive tax, so there would not be adverse distributional consequenses.
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Dirk van Dijk Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Elrod says:
Good point, Joe Schmoe. China has a notoriously light safety net and, consequently, plenty of room for stimulus.
Also, the graver problem in Europe right now is Eastern Europe and the sub-prime-like loans there held by Western European banks.
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Elrod Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
amir shahroodi says:
so in monday matrket will be open with gap
amir shahroodi Sat Mar 14 07:58:15 2009 MST #
lama says:
Silicon Valley to Casco Bay. LL Bean is letting people go as well. They have to be the most stable retailer in the country. I think they grew just fine throughout the 80's and 90's, good times and bad.
lama Sat Mar 14 08:00:08 2009 MST #
MLM says:
@Hymns
I don't see anything new in there. Stress test "worst case" conditions are anything but. They will be used as a fig leaf to provide more capital to the big 19. Until the USG goes back to the well for more and the bucket comes up empty.
MLM Sat Mar 14 08:02:05 2009 MST #
Hymns for the Lord says:
They may not have a choice. Wen's comments from China may be signalling they aren't going to finance the next trillion of bailout funding needed to avoid the bankruptcy of the money center banks. The only other option is for the Fed to buy Treasuries, effectively devaluing the dollar. Obama's response o Wen seemed to indicate they don't plan to go down that route. There is no wiggle room left - between Wen's statement and Obama's response, the only choice left is to restructure the banking system by wiping out investors rather than further bailouts. I'd be happy to hear what I'm misunderstanding (if you think I am).
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Hymns for the Lord Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
....and, amidst all the finger-pointing and recriminations, Obama gets to deal with the Soviets basing their heavy bombers 90-miles away in Cuba. The closest we've ever been to a nuclear war was over this very same thing in the 60's.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aOEsM2K7T0i8&refer=home
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 08:02:51 2009 MST #
Elrod says:
Soviets?
Putin ain't a saint but his Russia is no Soviet Union.
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Elrod Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Broker says:
Acording to Summers the economy can stabilize itself most of the time, except a few times a century, when it needs gov. intervention. For some weird reason names like Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Castro, etc, came to my mind after reading those words of wisdom.
Broker Sat Mar 14 08:05:28 2009 MST #
Elrod says:
And the name Godwin comes to mind too. :-P
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Elrod Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Anonymous says:
Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Castro, etc, came to my mind after reading those words of wisdom.
hahahahaha. I wonder why brainwashed 21st century Mccarthy? Seriously the US government wants to maintain capitalism in the driver seat of the economy. So all this "we're going towards socialism is pure bull. They will do every thing to maintain the status. Think more closer to Hitler more than anything. Socailism but the National kind.
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Anonymous Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
"Acording to Summers the economy can stabilize itself most of the time"...
.....if left alone to correct itself. Businesses must fail, a cleaning out must occur. Vultures DO provide a service in the wild and in business.
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 08:09:00 2009 MST #
Elrod says:
Generally I agree with this. But what happens when routine and appropriate failures lead to panic, as happened with the fall of Lehman Brothers? Markets in ordinary times scoop up the junk after firms fail. In run-of-the-mail recessions a wave of failures merely cleans out inventory and lowers prices for the next wave of growth. But this doesn't appear to be a run-of-the-mill recession, what with the mega-behemoth financial firms like Citi and AIG attaching themselves like parasites to the world's financial system. Did we ever have to worry about counterparty risk a ala AIG's CDS portfolio in past recessions?
That's my worry and I bet it was the worry of arch-free marketeer Paulson too.
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Elrod Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Cornholio says:
Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday the German state would only be able to pay a price that conformed with usual market values for stricken lender Hypo Real Estate.
German government officials will meet with stakeholder JC Flowers on Sunday in a fresh attempt to get the U.S. investor to give up his stake in Hypo Real Estate.
"What we cannot do now, is pay prices which are not consistent with the values usual in the market," Merkel told Deutschlandfunk radio.
The government has been negotiating with Flowers for weeks in an attempt to find a solution to acquire control of the bank, which has had to be propped up with more than 100 billion euros ($128.7 billion) of guarantees, mostly from the state.
The government has been encountering opposition from the group of investors led by JC Flowers which wants compensation for their stake in Hypo of roughly 24 percent and sees a price of nearly 3 euros per shares as fair.
Hypo Real Estate shares closed at 0.87 euros on Friday
http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&articleid=7218438&action=article
Yeah baby =-X
Cornholio Sat Mar 14 08:10:32 2009 MST #
Broker says:
Black Star Ranch I agree 100%.
Broker Sat Mar 14 08:16:11 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
Hymms, I can assure you the silly valley is getting hit. It began in sept/oct with contractor at foundation companies and now is filtering into the rank and file. I'd guess about 15% of the long time tech heads I know are unemployed and 2 more just got the heads up last Monday. I'm the gloomer in the group so folks call me to feel me out about stuff. The impression I got from several conversations was that it wasn't until recently that it became "ok" to talk about in the hallways. These are 100k incomes that went straight to zero. The men have said they feel emasculated by the hole thing. Once they finish processing the events, be ready for them to get angry.
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 08:27:30 2009 MST #
rich says:
When unemployed tech-heads get angry, they become hackers, right?
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rich Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Hymns for the Lord says:
Deflationary Jane,
Thanks for the report. What do the 15% (+2) you know who have been laid off plan to do? Are they searching for alternative tech gigs in the Valley? Are they trying to start new local ventures? Are they moving to other parts of the country to cut costs? Are they switching sectors? Did they have mortgaged homes? Are they renting out rooms? Are they selling?
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Hymns for the Lord Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Laughing out loud says:
The G20 Nations by and large are not savages, so they have a social safety net, and thus no need of these idiotic stimulus programs.
Laughing out loud Sat Mar 14 08:29:36 2009 MST #
CRbot says:
The Latest from Ritholz:
Wait a Second, Monkey Boy . . .
CRbot Sat Mar 14 08:31:18 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"....and, amidst all the finger-pointing and recriminations, Obama gets to deal with the Soviets basing their heavy bombers 90-miles away in Cuba. The closest we've ever been to a nuclear war was over this very same thing in the 60's. "
OB and Gang will rename the actions to make it more romantic Like changing the "Gitmo Combatants" name to maybe Undocumented Retired Warriors. That will take care of the problem real quick!
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 08:37:30 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Laughing out loud,
well, if you put it that way, I can't say I really disagree.
most members of the G 20 did not support torture, too, speaking of savagery. . . or at least they have not supported torture in the last couple of decades. I'd say that everyone has skeletons in their closets, but in some cases the corpses are still decomposing so there is some rotting flesh still on top of the bones.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 08:49:10 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Dirk
that sounds like reasonable counter-cyclical policy to me . . . made possible but by prudential policy in the past.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 08:55:02 2009 MST #
Miguel Swanstein says:
We finally have an annex to a communique!
Huzzah!
Miguel Swanstein Sat Mar 14 08:56:25 2009 MST #
homedad43 says:
Joe Shmoe:
mebbe I'm just sleep-deprived, but I don't see what the European desire to avoid more spending has to do with existant public spending.
Mebbe they just realize that the problem is going to have to be greater regulation and that the American approach is putting the cart before the horse.
homedad43 Sat Mar 14 08:56:41 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
Just a clarification. California borrowing against future lottery earnings is on the May ballot for public vote. Off year, off month all spending election propositions are normally hard to pass and this time doubly so with the exception that every state worker and teacher are an automatic yes. I still hold out hope for defeating this accounting trick.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 08:58:43 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
Rich, I'm not sure.
About 70% of that group have moved out of the BA into cheap McMansions out toward livermore and tracy. A couple of other have moved back home. 2 families and a single roommate can live pretty cheaply and that was their plan - pool resourses while living on unemployment and waiting this thing out.
They all keep looking for work, any work, and even the minimum wage jobs are gone. A friend applied to be a census taker and there were 14,000 applicants for 600 short duration jobs. one friend remarked that it felt like a neutron bomb exploded in San Jose. The buildings are still standing but the people are gone. I pointed out that there were still people working, just not as many. He reply was "they're shadow flashes on the walls, they just don't know it yet". Whether that is true, who knows. But it did give me a sense of the despair being felt.
ok back to packing and moving /ugh
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 08:59:09 2009 MST #
homedad43 says:
I'm trying to visualize tech-heads rioting in the streets.
Instead of shouting and throwing rocks, they're frantically punching PDA numbers in a concerted effort to crash some critical network...
homedad43 Sat Mar 14 09:01:21 2009 MST #
RicksterSherpa says:
Obviously Broker and some of the others aren't waiting in breadlines, yet. And believe me, there are breadlines as food banks and homeless shelters are doing a thriving business. It is really amazing to read the same kind of comments stated now as was stated in 1930 (the system must be cleanse, or in the immortal of Secretary Mellon: "liquidate the farms, liquidate the factories" etc. Perhaps you all agree with President Hoover that "many persons left their jobs for the more profitable business of selling apples." Frankly, with this talk of comparing Obama to Castro, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, (why not Saddam Hussein?), etc. just makes you all sound completely bat crazy nuts. Yes, the proletarian revolution has arrived with the tax rate on highest brackets going up to 39.5% and the capital gains rate going to 20% (how happy that Marxist Ronald Reagan must be, who in the 1986 Tax Reform Act signed a law that set the capital gains rate as the same rate as ordinary income, at 28%).
Yes, Minsky a credit bubble debt deflation recessions are different, and fortunately more rarer than the normal recession. It took sixty years of forgetfulness and no substantial credit bubbles to a new group of financial geniuses to undermine the New Deal restrictions and create the conditions for a great credit asset bubbles. So we are going to need a second New Deal with this problem and the underlying trade imbalances regarding oil and China. It is noteworthy that it was the structuralists on the left like Minsky and Galbraith who predicted in the 1990s that all that Wall Street financial exuberance would come to a bad end.
RicksterSherpa Sat Mar 14 09:05:14 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
LOL I've stupidly played tag football with some of this crew. If they get that pissed, I'm getting out of the way. Never underestimate the combined influence of testostrone, an sudden endorpine rush from anger, and a crowd.
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 09:05:41 2009 MST #
homedad43 says:
All due respect Jane, but most guys with weapons are akin to Powers Boothe and Keith Carradine in "Southern Comfort."
They'll get eaten alive.
homedad43 Sat Mar 14 09:10:29 2009 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
"1986 Tax Reform Act signed a law that set the capital gains rate as the same rate as ordinary income, at 28%"
Isn't 28% ADDITIONAL tax on earnings previously taxed enough?
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 09:14:24 2009 MST #
lama says:
Blackstar,
There's the rub. I don't think the corporation should pay taxes on distributed income anyway. The individual owns the corporation.
Once it's in the individuals' hands, I think it should be taxed as ordinary income. Preferential treatment just manipulates normal investor behavior.
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lama Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
I suppose none of the tech types had any significant savings, Jane?
Are the restaurants still busy?
My mom took us to a nice Thai restaurant, and it was
as busy as in days of yore, with people waiting. The paper reports that spring break is reasonably busy, with kids coming to the space coast rather than someplace more expensive like Cancun.
I was pretty despairing about my business, but it seems to have picked up lately. Both as the the real estate purchases and sales and the bad stuff like evictions and foreclosures. It seems there is some capituation of sellers and lenders; reality is being recognized. Also, so many title companies have gone out of business, I suppose I have less competition.
Florida was never as prosperous as Cali, nor anywhere near as extravagant. Also, everybody feels they are in the same boat, so it's been ok to talk about it for a while.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:14:35 2009 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
.....has anyone thought about how day-to-day life will change when unemployment starts running out (for many people now)?
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 09:17:15 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
I hadn't even thought of weapons actually. Too mas max for me.
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 09:17:37 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Black Star, I think they should extend it, but sooner or later, it will, indeed, run out.
There will be people living in the woods-indeed there always have been some. Luckily, we won't have any more freezes for 10 months.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:19:30 2009 MST #
REBear says:
Why should other countries want to spend when the US is more than happy to spend for everyone?
REBear Sat Mar 14 09:21:25 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
Liz, we have a lot of trust fund babies. I know a few and those folks are still thinking it will only hurt 'those' people.
Not saying it's all going to explode but something snapped in sept/Oct and it's just been radiating out. It's just what I see among my friends and travels, your mileage will certainly vary :-P
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 09:22:26 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Homedad
What is called stimulus here is part of everyday budgeting there.
And what needs an emergency to expand here does not need an emergency to expand there, but is already built into the system as a commitment that expands as the demand for that commitment expands (e.g., more people collecting unemployment, more use of social services, more people returning to or staying in state funded higher education).
This enables Angela Merkel to tell Americans to go stuff it, and to play high stakes poker at the bargaining table. She can say no to "stimulus" without facing angry mobs of the unemployed in Germany because they are already covered by benefits that expand to fill their need.
Caveats:
1) I am speaking loosely.
2) I am not saying that this difference between state roles and social contracts is the only thing going on. I certainly hope the EU or someone teaches the US a few good lessons about regulation.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 09:22:37 2009 MST #
JP says:
Deflationary Jane: The men have said they feel emasculated by the hole thing.
I suspect you meant to type "whole", but "hole" works much better.
JP Sat Mar 14 09:23:35 2009 MST #
Deflationary Jane says:
bahahaha great typo! Seriously, time to get back to packing and schlepping.
Deflationary Jane Sat Mar 14 09:25:12 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Sometimes you just have to go more socialistic. Sometimes the pendulum has to swing. Sometimes we can think of ideas that don't fit on the capitalism--communism track.
But mostly, people are unable to think.
Like that knee jerk reaction to my comment yesterday about arms used in the Mexican drug war being imported to Mexico. I challenge anyone to say why a hypothetical big truck filled with the most heavy duty legal weapons allowed, with ammo and supplies crossing the border into Mexico: Is there a reason they shouldn't be confiscated? Is there a reason why the gun dealers if there were just one or 2 sources, not being investigated to see if they knew where all this stuff was going?
My hub is a member of the NRA. We have guns in the house. I have enjoyed target shooting. I think I could kill someone who was invading my house. But just because I think that having armed citizens is a good thing, doesn't mean that that I also think it is a good idea to export weapons into a war zone, right on the border, in a war basically caused by U. S. citizens, who both have a voracious appetite for drugs and a reluctance to legalize even milder drugs, like pot.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:29:10 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
CR needs to track trash indicator
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/13/AR2009031303432.html
"The trash man is the first one to know about a recession because we see it first," said Richard S. Weber, manager of the Loudoun County landfill.
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 09:29:59 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Florida will need 3 fewer prisons, 'cause fewer criminals are moving here. Oh, noez, lack of building stimulous!!
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:32:25 2009 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
....we've even had a few kids and other assorted family members call with general questions like, "Do you still have the old Pioneer trailer set up?", or "Who's staying in the bunkhouse nowadays".....shucks - I might even be able to get out of having to do all the dishes and silverware here pretty soon!
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 09:32:35 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
"Isn't 28% ADDITIONAL tax on earnings previously taxed enough?"
Nope, but nice try Black Star. Income is income is income and should be taxed at the same rate a wage earner's income is taxed.
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 09:39:41 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
...shucks - I might even be able to get out of having to do all the dishes and silverware here pretty soon!
I guess. That is if you don't mind trading housework for perimeter guard duty.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 09:40:40 2009 MST #
Werner says:
G-20: No Call for Stimulus ...
What Americans do not (and will not) see is that it is PRIMARILY THEIR economy which is .ucked. They (predominantly) took on these unconcionable amounts of credit FOR CONSUMPTIVE REASONS and are feeling now the brunt as this credit-binge comes to an end. They are the ones which produced all these nice AAA-liar loans. And they still cling on to the notion that the world should finance their profligacy.
As Jas said : born and breed dopes !
P.S. The Cineese now stimulate their own economy rather than theowing their hard earned money onto fraudulent American financial papers and the Americans don't like that either .
Irresponsible, fraudulent America should be kicked out of the G20 !
Werner Sat Mar 14 09:41:54 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Cornholio quoted: "The government has been encountering opposition from the group of investors led by JC Flowers which wants compensation for their stake in Hypo of roughly 24 percent and sees a price of nearly 3 euros per shares as fair. Hypo Real Estate shares closed at 0.87 euros on Friday."
Ha ha ha -- looks like JC Flowers hedged a bit using CDSs, and wants payment for those, too, or it lets the truck drive off the cliff. Reminded me of this recent Bloomberg on the use of CDSs to create a class of protected bondholder:
http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aZjMcuIoat7U&refer=exclusive
Same logic works for equity holders who use CDSs to hedge against BK: they have no reason to fully co-operate in any rescue plan.
HA HA HA -- you BET the Germans want to rein in the damn derivatives thingies!
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 09:42:28 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Has Jas stolen Werner's handle?
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:43:05 2009 MST #
Ethan says:
Black Star Ranch @ 10:14:24
No it isn't. Capital gains tax is not on dividends which some people think is double taxation because the corporation paid tax on its income.
Capital gains tax is a tax on the increase in (nominal) value during the time you hold an asset (and don't write it off as depreciation, etc.)
Besides if the corporation could avoid the "double taxation" on dividends just by giving up the corporate form and operating as a partnership. Why do you think they don't do it? Could it be there is a great advantage to operating as a corporation -- greater than the tax burden?|
Ethan Sat Mar 14 09:43:34 2009 MST #
Comrade Scott (in Va) says:
Isn't 28% ADDITIONAL tax on earnings previously taxed enough?
If corporations actually paid taxes, the double-dipping argument would hold water.
Why, pray tell, should one type of work (investment) be taxed differently than another (wage)?
It's pretty shameless of the investor class to bleat about class warfare and tax inequity when as a practical matter (as applied) they pay a significantly smaller fraction of their income (all milked from the same economic system provided for by our US Government) than wage earners.
If we truly taxed all income from all sources in the same manner - including applying FICA to all income below the agreed-upon window - if we really had an honest, apples-to-apples tax structure, we could afford to just dump the corporate tax charade and pursue the EU model of nearly zero corporate taxes.
While we're at it, we should also free our corporations of the burdens of pretending to provide social-welfare programs like health-care and pensions - lets just be honest about the real purpose of corporations - to make money. Of course, you'd have to find a way to replace them in that role...c'mon all you 'creative destruction' capitalist purists and realists...put your money where your rhetorical mouths are.
Comrade Scott (in Va) Sat Mar 14 09:44:22 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Anonymous on Citi and BAC:
I think that is possible.
But, going back to Hymns for the Lord's posting of this link to Kevin Drum (http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/03/summers-brookings), I think we look at the situation less speculatively from the opposite direction . . . by which I mean taking stock of the current state of play rather than trying to predict the future.
The current state of play - or the partof it that should be emphasized when thinking about the govt and insolvent banks - is uncertainty.
Obama says banks may fail, and he, Summers, and Geithner keep holding out to possibility that some will be restructured, even as they the banks will be kept functioning and they keep providing subsidies.
Let's take the limiting case that is the opposite of pre-privatization. Let's say, for the sake of argument (as quite a few in fact believe), that the Obama Administration is totally aligned with the interests of the big banks, and their main goal is to save the banks and bankers. What would they do?
I think the politics and economics of it are such that the best and almost only way to save the big banks and bankers would be to ritually sacrifice one or more of them. Summers just talked about taking action against failed management. That sets up a big political reaction against the bailouts and subsidies if no action is ever taken against any bank management. Some banker needs to be sacrificed in order to save the others, if saving them is the goal.
And let's remember that the big banks and bankers use each other and would love to grill their rivals and consume them on the cheap. They are cannibals, not loving family.
Hence, taking the harshest view of the Obama Admn and the banks and bankers, some of them, at least one of them, must be sacrificed if the goal is to save the biggest of them.
To my mind, that means Citi and BAC, at least, cannot be confident of their future. Remember, the Obama Admin haas not unequivocally endorsed them. Unequivocal endorsement is not what is going on, and it would not be credible or politically safe if it happened.
What we are left with, for the time being, at least, is uncertainty. Not my first choice, but better than unequivocally endorsing each and every bankster.
Back to the future: I don't see how Citi makes it out of this whole, at minimum.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 09:45:38 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
totally agree -- from the get go this has een degnating jpm and wfc a the good banks. Note the WFC divvy raise into the short ban. This is a buffet special and he is now in gS and GE. He is connected and betting these guys survive. that alone is as good a tell as anything. the danger right now is that the FDIC is allowing a subtle fleecing via the FDIC backed debt. This is the one story that is not being told. $200B so far issued and $30B last week. now the fdic wants to raise the issuance fee - wonder why?
Parent Post
Anonymous Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
MrM says:
Cross-posting my comment from Mother Jones
Given the basic assumptions of the stress tests, when in the base case scenario GDP and unemployment are assumed to be better than then the actual levels (stress tests were designed a couple of moths ago), how can they be anything but fig leaves? Since when the capital requirement is based on the likelihood to survive the basecase scenario? Geithner, Summers & Co. obviously still believe this is but a temporary hiccup and no fundamental changes are required, so the objective of stress test is not to identify weak banks, but to convince the public, both at home and abroad, that the major US banks are safe and sound. It is rather pathetic, actually, to see highly analytical minds like Summers searching for supporting arguments to a pre-determined outcome instead of searching for truth.
Besides, aren't the market supposed to be the most efficient mechanisms for processing information? Why does one have to be so circumspect in doling out information to the markets? Why do the markets have to be treated like irresponsible children?
Parent Post
MrM Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
By the way, for those who are interested, the Balto police in the form of one very hardworking detective, have gotten off their duffs and are investicating my mom's mugging. I found out that in addition to fingerprints, they also took DNA!! And are going to have my mom's DNA taken for comparison!! And have someone who matches the description of one of the bad girls in jail in Balto county!! And my mom will do a photo line up here in Fla!!
The suspect has been suspected for doing this stuff for 20 years. Same mo.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 09:46:47 2009 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Werner: I recommend you read "Traders, Guns & Money" by Satyajit Das.
Yes, we taught the Europeans how to construct derivatives and we sold more of them, but they've been playing in that sandbox almost as long as the Americans.
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 09:52:05 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Black Star Ranch writes: ".....has anyone thought about how day-to-day life will change when unemployment starts running out (for many people now)?"
I have a brother-in-law and family who will run out in about three months. With a $1400 COBRA and a mortgage, it's not going to be pretty.
So, what's going to happen in this case? I may have to subsidize unless I want some new roommates is the long and short of it...
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 09:53:31 2009 MST #
reptillian says:
Anyone know why when I refresh the CR main page, I get several:
Xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server
Xlib: No protocol specified
I know that something is trying to connect to the X server, but why?
It seems to happen when something from google analytics or doubleclick is loading, but the server names whiz by so fast that I can't be sure.
reptillian Sat Mar 14 09:53:53 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
Werner rants:
What Americans do not (and will not) see is that it is PRIMARILY THEIR economy which is .ucked.
I don't see that at all. All I see is the Euro nations waving the contained talisman and hoping.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 09:58:01 2009 MST #
lama says:
"All I see is the Euro nations waving the contained talisman and hoping."
All I see are interdependent relationships with Asian and European trading partners. There's not much more containment between the US and Europe than between California and Arizona.
Parent Post
lama Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Comrade Scott (in Va) says:
reptillian -
Presumeably you're on a Mac or more likely a Linux box...that is an exception being thrown by one X client (software program - very likely a browser window) trying to connect to the X server (graphics server) on your machine.
It is very unlikely that it has anything to do with CR or JSkit. What OS, Broswer and Window manager are you using?
Comrade Scott (in Va) Sat Mar 14 10:00:37 2009 MST #
bearly says:
Is the rockstar American Mugabe ready for a Kennedy affair ?
[March 14 (Bloomberg) -- Russia could land strategic bombers at Cuban and Venezuelan airfields while conducting patrols, the head of the Russian strategic air force was quoted as saying by the Interfax news service.
“With Cuba, this is possible,” the Moscow-based agency quoted Major General Anatoly Zhikharev as saying. “There are four or five airfields with 4,000-meter (13,000-feet) runways which suit us completely.”
Russia has also received an offer to temporarily station bombers in Venezuela from President Hugo Chavez, which Zhikharev called “possible,” according to state television station Vesti-24.
“If the heads of the two countries show the will, the political will, then we are prepared to fly there,” Zhikharev said, according to Interfax]
bearly Sat Mar 14 10:01:26 2009 MST #
burnside says:
Several comments here and recently on European social safety net. My few friends on the old continent say it isn't without its problems, and that scaling up for current difficulties will likely produce a number of horror stories. Nonetheless, they say, the structure is in place and functioning in its way and they're grateful for that. They laughed at our notions of EU 'perfection' - said the only ones over there who think it's really well-run are those who haven't had to rely on it.
Nevertheless, their approach will almost certainly be centered on helping workers and those who've lost their jobs. That's quite a contrast. While they toss another log on the fire, we're all about the propane and lighter fluid.
burnside Sat Mar 14 10:05:22 2009 MST #
Barley says:
"American Mugabe"
bearly
+1
Barley Sat Mar 14 10:05:30 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Cuba has no reason to tweak the US at this moment... they're trying to get out of the box the embargo has them in. Venezuela is a different kettle of fish: Chavez would love to lock-in his newly-minted revolution with a physical Russian base. Whether the Russians want to pay the high prices involved (physical and diplomatic) or are just having some fun here, who knows.
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:08:59 2009 MST #
bearly says:
[Nope, but nice try Black Star. Income is income is income and should be taxed at the same rate a wage earner's income is taxed.]
Dividend income should be TAX-FREE.
bearly Sat Mar 14 10:09:26 2009 MST #
joe shmoe says:
Burnside
I agree completely.
joe shmoe Sat Mar 14 10:10:07 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
"American Mugabe"
bearly
-1
must all political arguments use 3rd grade namecalling?
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:10:24 2009 MST #
GS Rome says:
"must all political arguments use 3rd grade namecalling?"
+1
Parent Post
GS Rome Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"I have a brother-in-law and family who will run out in about three months. With a $1400 COBRA and a mortgage, it's not going to be pretty."
Did he have savings to cover any emergencies?
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 10:11:18 2009 MST #
Zoi says:
Unless he or his family has pre-existing conditions, skip COBRA - you can almost always do better buying your own (high deductible with HSA).
Parent Post
Zoi Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
reptillian says:
reptillian -
Presumeably you're on a Mac or more likely a Linux box...that is an exception being thrown by one X client (software program - very likely a browser window) trying to connect to the X server (graphics server) on your machine.
It is very unlikely that it has anything to do with CR or JSkit. What OS, Broswer and Window manager are you using?
I am using Solaris 10 and firefox 2.0...
I tried a lot of stuff, like adblocker and disabling javascript -- no help. Then I killed the browser and restarted it -- poof! problem is gone, with javascript enabled and no adblocker on CR.
\t
reptillian Sat Mar 14 10:15:05 2009 MST #
Werner says:
Rob Dawg says:
Today, 16:58:01
“Werner rants:
What Americans do not (and will not) see is that it is PRIMARILY THEIR economy which is .ucked.
I don't see that at all. All I see is the Euro nations waving the contained talisman and hoping.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
... says someone from BAILOUT nation. Hahaha.
Who IS constantly crying for stimulus and bailout (and nore credit, easy credit, f.ck mark to market, etc.) ?
Is it the nation of dopes ?
Werner Sat Mar 14 10:15:52 2009 MST #
Barley says:
re Trade Data
"The deceleration in real export growth has been quite sharp. Real exports were up 10% y/y as recently as July 2008. They were down 9.7% y/y in December 2008. And they were down 19.2% in January"
Does this represent general GDP economic contraction of the same factor?
Barley Sat Mar 14 10:18:31 2009 MST #
Fair Economist says:
After this catastrophe, we should at least seriously consider socializing the banking system. People talk about government inefficiencies, but I certainly can't think of any government-run bank that created a mess anything like what we're in. With banking, it seems capitalist inefficiencies vastly exceed governmental one. Besides, I get much better service from the DMV or the post office than I do from banks or credit card companies. I've never had the government "lose" a payment or check but I've had it happen several times with private banks.
Fair Economist Sat Mar 14 10:18:35 2009 MST #
GS Rome says:
Fair Econ: "I get much better service from the DMV or the post office than I do from banks"
What loan guidelines would they follow? Would I need to make a donation to the Governor (IL resident) to borrow? Just reinstate the depression era regs and enforce them.
Parent Post
GS Rome Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Anonymous says:
Fair Economist says:Today, People talk about government inefficiencies, but I certainly can't think of any government-run bank that created a mess anything like what we're in.
How 'bout the Fed?
Parent Post
Anonymous Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Bubblisimo Gerkinov says:
Lawyerliz says:Today, 7:43:05 PM“Has Jas stolen Werner's handle?
Werner is Jas' sock puppet.
Bubblisimo Gerkinov Sat Mar 14 10:19:38 2009 MST #
REBear says:
http://www.myhusbandneedsajob.com/
is already taken.
REBear Sat Mar 14 10:21:00 2009 MST #
Darkness says:
"he [Summers, carefully choosing his words] specifically said that the administration's response would be designed to insure that big banks "meet their commitments and lend on a substantial scale."
THIS alone is troubling in that the main thrust of the FedGov's policy cure-all is for more "consumer borrowing".
The time for weening the country off debt should have started in 2003 with raising interest rates. (Also would have nicely put the brakes on the bubbles). But at this point, you really want the system put on a creditless diet, cold turkey? Unless you want the tent cities to rival the size of the real cities it's way too late for that. The country is a giant diabetic. The patient needs a new regime to get off the insulin, eventually. Anything else will simply kill him/her.
Darkness Sat Mar 14 10:21:56 2009 MST #
Darkness says:
"All I see is the Euro nations waving the contained talisman and hoping."
If the Euro-zone thinks no more money is required, then we should stop propping up AIG. We have way better uses for that money.
Darkness Sat Mar 14 10:28:46 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
For Werner,
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,612729,00.html
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 10:32:41 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover writes: "Did he have savings to cover any emergencies?"
He has some, but he was unemployed for a long time during the dot.com crash (aren't IT jobs grand?), so I doubt it's a Suzy-Orman level 9 months. At least they didn't fall for the HELOC-temptation during the temporary spike in the value of their home...
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:32:47 2009 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Bearly: "Dividend income should be TAX-FREE."
Why?
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 10:34:23 2009 MST #
EvilHenryPaulson says:
Werner
What do you do to end a recession when there is no demand?
Normal recessions have an impulse of demand disruption in limited sectors. This time all industries are affected, there is no smoothing over demand with credit, exports will be one of the last sectors to fully recover
The answer I tentatively have is real wage cuts.
Is there any sense being too proud in your currency or previously negotiated contracts if it maintains the pain? America may be arrogant, but it is also adept at accepting big changes. The one sticking point probably would be reducing their military, which overall is an easy problem to have
EvilHenryPaulson Sat Mar 14 10:36:08 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Sooner or later, the savings would run out, even if it were 9 months. The big question with everybody, is, what happens then?
How is Iceland doing? How are they surviving?
Eating fish only? No more cheerios?
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 10:36:31 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
DCRogers,
I wish him luck and I think more unemployment is to come, hopefully for him. The term prepared is ignored in so many cases I am always skeptical.
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 10:37:04 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
Werner whines;
... says someone from BAILOUT nation. Hahaha.
Who IS constantly crying for stimulus and bailout (and nore credit, easy credit, f.ck mark to market, etc.) ?
Is it the nation of dopes ?
Grow up. Iceland imploded. UK on the ropes. The Swiss are scrambling. The Germans are still smug but looking over their shoulder. Don't mistake this for a US event universal credit equals universal consequences.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 10:38:16 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"Sooner or later, the savings would run out, even if it were 9 months. The big question with everybody, is, what happens then? "
Inconvenient reality sets in. Back to the future days of Great Grandpa and grandma. Live with next to nothing, scrounge, beg, hand outs and seeing life for what it is. I really expect the unauthorized inner city games will start this summer and then go on the road to much of America. =-O
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 10:41:16 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover writes: "I wish him luck and I think more unemployment is to come, hopefully for him. The term prepared is ignored in so many cases I am always skeptical."
I am shocked at how I spent most of my 30's in a high-paid tech job with no savings, living from month-to-month. Gulp!
My BIL was actually pretty good at saving in his 401k plan; but I think it's a terrible idea to eat our already ravaged retirement savings to cover a temporary employment gap, so I hope he doesn't.
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:43:20 2009 MST #
Comrade De Chaos says:
What they would love to call for is the trade war & more protectionism. The message is clear, let's hope the US has some demand for our goods or else .. everyone on their own.
:-$
Comrade De Chaos Sat Mar 14 10:44:05 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
I don't know about any riots necessarily starting with the inner city. been there, done that. Also, the inner city-ites know how to scrounge already, and how to get what safely net there is. I think that any violence will start someplace completely unexpected.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 10:44:34 2009 MST #
DCRogers says:
Re: Germans and stimulus
IMF has looked at the numbers, and claims that due to the automatic stabilizers, the Germans are already stimulating as much as the Americans. (Biggest difference is they got a later start.)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123681293916501451.html?mod=fox_australian
but it's hard not to look at the recent numbers and not get a chill:
http://germaneconomy.blogspot.com/2009/03/german-exports-fall-again-sharply.html
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:45:58 2009 MST #
EvilHenryPaulson says:
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/106732/Suburbia-R-I-P
The suburb has been a costly experiment. Thirty-five percent of the nation's wealth has been invested in building a drivable suburban landscape, according to Christopher Leinberger, an urban planning professor at the University of Michigan and visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. James Howard Kunstler, author of "The Geography of Nowhere," has been saying for years that we can no longer afford suburbs. "If Americans think they've been grifted by Goldman Sachs and Bernie Madoff, wait until they find out what a swindle the so-called 'American Dream' of suburban life turns out to be," he wrote on his blog this week.
EvilHenryPaulson Sat Mar 14 10:46:17 2009 MST #
bearly says:
[Bearly: "Dividend income should be TAX-FREE."
Why?]
Already taxed once as corp earnings. Anyhow, it would help solve the bubble growth premiums and reward true earnings driven payouts to shareholders who would hold stocks for income instead of Cramer's gambling.
bearly Sat Mar 14 10:47:09 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
I think, that if violence starts it will be most likely to start on the Mexican border, for reasons that are completely inexplicable now, but will be said to be completely obvious after the fact.
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 10:47:10 2009 MST #
bankerwannabe says:
Bearly - It would be horribly unfair if dividend income were tax free.
Many small businesses are set up as S-Corps, with owners receiving the bulk of their income in the form of dividends. This is already a great advantage, because there are no payroll taxes on dividends. If there were no income taxes either, small business income would be virtually tax free.
It would be completely unfair, and I say that as someone who would benefit a great deal by what you propose.
bankerwannabe Sat Mar 14 10:49:08 2009 MST #
fried says:
Funny how Werner has disappeared, now that he can't claim it's all America's fault. Tried to warn him about being an exporting nation in a depression, but no, he argued Germany's economic prowess was impregnable. Not.
" The lastest piece of bad news comes on the export front, with German exports dropping for a fourth consecutive month in January, as what is still Europe’s largest economy fell ever deeper into what is now its worst recession in 60 years. "
From DCrogers' link above...
fried Sat Mar 14 10:50:21 2009 MST #
EvilHenryPaulson says:
fried,
Exports fall 20.7% all the time, probably just a little inventory glut... no need to panic
Parent Post
EvilHenryPaulson Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
DCRogers says:
Was recently talking to a mid-level German friend who felt that Germany could rely on Chinese stimulus bleeding over to cover German exports lost to the rest of the world. With at least some of the Chinese stimulus likely wasted on ramping up more unneeded production capacity to dump into the world markets, my thought was, good luck with that. The export-driven model that Germany wants to preserve is gonna hurt hard.
DCRogers Sat Mar 14 10:50:26 2009 MST #
fried says:
DCrpgers,
there's a German-Chinese-America export loop...Germans were selling capital equip to the Chinese to build their factories to sell junk to Americans. That loop is cratering hard now, and the cliff-diving in exports puts a knife into the German economy.
Parent Post
fried Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Anonymous says:
President Barack Obama said on Saturday China and other nations can be assured of the health of their U.S. investments
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1447638020090314
Buy me a hamburger today and I will gladly pay you back in devalued dollars on Tuesday. HAaaaaaaaaa =-X
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 10:52:57 2009 MST #
Comrade De Chaos says:
"Bearly: "Dividend income should be TAX-FREE."
Why?"
there will be more dividends paid. plus some people think it is unfair to double tax your capital.
I think it is more important to encourage corporations to bring most of their cash home. They should give them 3 months light tax (let's say 15 %) spring break and than require to file the info with all of their foreign cash holdings to IRA. ANother requirement could be paying high tax for interest received overseas & higher taxes for overseas production capacity vs, domestic capacity.
Comrade De Chaos Sat Mar 14 10:53:21 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
safely net
The reality lesson from this is self control of ones life is the real safety net, not the government.
The OB administration is not creating jobs now nor on the level of need. The immediate tensions can not be reduced with education, green experiments, or banking building more government crap.
Inner city scrounging is stealing more then dumpster diving. Tensions have historically started in the inner city. Detroit is my pick. The cars business collapse is more then they can bare. We are not the peaceful society of the Okie era.
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 10:58:13 2009 MST #
evelyn woods graduate says:
Sesame Workshop, the non-profit producers of Sesame Street and other children's programs will be eliminating 67 of its 355 staff positions, ...
No word whether more "Elmos" or "Kermits" were targeted.
evelyn woods graduate Sat Mar 14 10:59:13 2009 MST #
Comrade De Chaos says:
""President Barack Obama said on Saturday China and other nations can be assured of the health of their U.S. investments "
i wish he would say F... you."
Comrade De Chaos Sat Mar 14 11:01:28 2009 MST #
Comrade De Chaos says:
I would start F ing you with mentioning that US government only covers the government paper & in general investments always carry a risk - interest risk, currency risk, and f. you risk. I would continue saying that such a lame statements won't freeze unfair trade investigations of dumping and currency manipulations. I would also mention that an average CHinese citizen has gained a lot due to the our open borders therefore they should think before damaging a branch they are so comfortably sitting on.
Comrade De Chaos Sat Mar 14 11:02:10 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
The best thing for the US is if they do stop buying our debt. Then Benny will have to monetize, the dollar will crash and the much sought after Keynesian inflation genie will haunt the land. :'(
Parent Post
Anonymous Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"I think, that if violence starts it will be most likely to start on the Mexican border"
Good point but that is not directly from our economy but more Mexico's controlling minority not responsibly growing their own economy.
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 11:04:36 2009 MST #
Comrade De Chaos says:
http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-fisker-beats-tesla-to-tv-2009-3
while some prefer to beg for the fed aid and waste our tax payers money, the others come out with a new car design & technologies.
Comrade De Chaos Sat Mar 14 11:13:25 2009 MST #
Mel says:
Lowering, or eliminating, corporate taxes hasn't worked out too well possibly because we also lowered individual income tax rates. Americans were less greedy and had more scruples when the top rate was 91% and the corporate rate was at 52%. Why, because the tax man got most of the ill gotten gain.
Mel Sat Mar 14 11:17:39 2009 MST #
Txchick57 says:
Start taxing these organizations that have been getting away with murder for decades.
Txchick57 Sat Mar 14 11:20:53 2009 MST #
Joe says:
I should think there will be a lot more "under the table" employment going on. Small businesses cannot afford to add to payroll, but need periodic help. Unemployed want to collect benefits so can't show employment. It's a win win since the employer saves on payroll taxes, etc.
Joe Sat Mar 14 11:21:20 2009 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Bearly: "Dividends are taxed twice"...???
I believe someone addressed this earlier...but financial fundamentalists wear blinders.
As Dean Baker points out in TomPaine.com
"...Proponents of a tax preference for dividend income
have pushed the notion that the taxation of dividend
income amounts to double taxation. The basis for this
claim is that corporate profits are subject to the corporate
income tax. Since dividends are paid out of profits, the
argument is that the personal income tax paid on dividend
income amounts to a second tax on corporate profits. This
logic is dubious for two reasons. First, there is a legal and
logical distinction between the corporation as an
entity and the individual shareholders who own
the firm. Second, the tax rates currently in place were
set with the knowledge that there was both a corporate
and individual income tax. This means that if there is a moral
objection to "double taxation" then the appropriate remedy
would also require an increase in the corporate income tax..."
I believe you want no taxes at all...certainly not "fair taxes." I wouldn't want to live in your world where no one pays their taxes. Might I suggest Russia?
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 11:29:49 2009 MST #
reptillian says:
Citi Seeking Directors with Financial Experience!
reptillian Sat Mar 14 11:30:15 2009 MST #
mock turtle says:
several commenters above have decried increases in government spending during a recession or depression (stimulus)
can you imagine what would happen to the country when a government would cut back on spending during a fall in aggregated demand??
businesses are decreasing their investment spending, consumers are cutting back, imports and exports are falling around the world
and so now some suggest its time to cut back on government spending!!! thats a prescription for armageddon
forget the governments creates demand for goods and services in the overall economy (jobs)
just think what happens during economic collapse when you degrade police, fire, food inspection, social services, education, social security medicare etc, and military spending (the last two i believe represent more than half of all fed expenditures)
the time to cut government is during prosperous times
counter cyclical government spending
the key thing now is to shift government spending from consumer non durables, to infrastructure and capital investment
mock turtle Sat Mar 14 11:35:25 2009 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Lawyer Liz: As a native AZ desert dweller living elsewhere, I would agree with you. Look South as violence boils over the border and into the U.S. We already have serious Meth distribution lines snaking from the TX border up into the Midwest. They caught supervisors feeding illegals meth to keep them awake on the packers' kill production lines.
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 11:37:23 2009 MST #
mock turtle says:
mexico is beginning to look like a failed state being taken over by narco-terrorists...talk about threats to our security
Parent Post
mock turtle Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
cd says:
OT-Yesterday I ran some errands before traffic in the city (SF) turns crazy...3:00Pm in daly city area, Nordstrom rack was packed, Home Depot was busiest I've seen it in 2 years..understaffed to handle it, Target was busy etc....I was caught off guard by the traffic in retail...Not saying a bottom but activity was impressive in current climate...
Also signed up 40 new clients and maybe (90% chance)landed the largest automotive portal on the web as enterprise client..
still holding srs though and still a bear....cheers-enjoy the weekend...
cd Sat Mar 14 11:38:23 2009 MST #
Dust Bowling for Dollars says:
Even here in boomtown Houston, home to about 40,000 recent Californians, in my completely unscientific sampling - lately it's been complete madness. Every store is jammed, every restaurant packed. New cars flood the streets.
Dust Bowling for Dollars Sat Mar 14 11:42:04 2009 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Yeah, Mexico's been shifting down since NAFTA gave the little people a boot in the a$$. Great for bankers & the biz elites tho. Corruption among the elites & the cops has always been a big problem. But now it's drug-fueled. That one particularly nasty crowd that beheads people were trained by us as an elite corps to go after the cartels. Why do we never learn??? South America, Afghanistan....
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 11:50:26 2009 MST #
Timo says:
"The export-driven model that Germany wants to preserve is gonna hurt hard"
Compared to what, your shopping mall-driven? This is going to be much much worse than even the Great Depression for Americans.
The simple reason for that is the huge misallocation of US economy into consumption/service sectors that relies on availability of easy credit to keep things going.
Timo Sat Mar 14 11:50:36 2009 MST #
I Heart CRbot says:
I think, that if violence starts it will be most likely to start on the Mexican border, for reasons that are completely inexplicable now, but will be said to be completely obvious after the fact.
Lawyerliz | Sat, 14 Mar 09 11:47:10 -0500 | #
Let's see one scenario that would satisfy those conditions: Inexplicably to most, our government fights for the other side, against U.S. citizens, for the by then obvious reason that it (our government) no longer recognizes that border.
I Heart CRbot Sat Mar 14 11:51:54 2009 MST #
Threads Must Die (aka bobn) says:
Comrade De Chaos says:
""President Barack Obama said on Saturday China and other nations can be assured of the health of their U.S. investments "
When you have to say thngs like that, it means they're not true.
Ref: Paulson talking about the health of the banking sector. Someday soon the Chinese will run away screaming: game over. =-O
Threads Must Die (aka bobn) Sat Mar 14 11:52:07 2009 MST #
Cornholio says:
I'm an American and I don't trust the health of US investments, massive inflation at some point is the only way out and all of the clowns know it. I trust Gold, Guns and Groceries.
Parent Post
Cornholio Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Newbie 101 says:
The above reply to Lawyerliz was by me.
Newbie 101 Sat Mar 14 11:52:49 2009 MST #
sdtfs says:
Every store is jammed, every restaurant packed. New cars flood the streets.
I wonder if this is the new American version of "getting small"; spending every last dollar on discounted merchandise and piling up the savings! Save Big on a new bedroom set now!!!
sdtfs Sat Mar 14 11:57:00 2009 MST #
BeemMeUpTimmy says:
Riots no, but there are other ways of rebeling such as the guys that ran with all the Toyota's this week, crime in thiefs of money etc will/is going out of site. Who among us is not sooooo tired of our Goverment FUPSSSSS.
BeemMeUpTimmy Sat Mar 14 11:57:59 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
EHP reports:
Thirty-five percent of the nation's wealth has been invested in building a drivable suburban landscape, according to Christopher Leinberger, an urban planning professor at the University of Michigan and visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution.
What a weird thing to claim. It's almost as if the professor of urban planning has a bias against suburbs. 35%? It's almost as if there were no benefits or returns from a massive investment in capacity and infrastructure. Like I said, strange.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 11:58:42 2009 MST #
Morocco Bama says:
Isn't the G20 an automobile? Why don't we call it the Dirty Dozen Plus Eight or the Dirty Double Dozen Less Four?
Morocco Bama Sat Mar 14 12:04:00 2009 MST #
Rob Dawg says:
Can you imagine what would happen to the country when a government would cut back on spending during a fall in aggregated demand??
Why yes I can imagine. I can imagine that such an admirable policy would wisely be put to use and consume large portions of the massive surplus built up in the flush years.
Why such a policy might even result in returning government spend as a percentage of GDP back up to historical norms.
Rob Dawg Sat Mar 14 12:05:43 2009 MST #
Morocco Bama says:
You need to rebel in many ways....they all add up. For example, I wear black, or blue, running quarter socks with my dress shoes and pants to work. In meetings, I fold my leg so the sychophantic wannabes can gander and gasp. A similar rebellious move for women in business would be to wear skirts with no underwear. Imgaine what it would do for morale.
Morocco Bama Sat Mar 14 12:09:32 2009 MST #
cd says:
How does this guys have a tv show..They should have a tv show with him being stoned by these people and other investors that have lost millions...
Trump Sued by Condo Buyers Over Abandoned Baja Luxury Resort
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amZyVmUO5gJU&refer=home
He is greed personified...He is Madoff with a tv show..
cd Sat Mar 14 12:12:04 2009 MST #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
I saw that "development." The water right in front of it is so polluted by the raw sewage pumped out of Tijuana and Rosarito that you would glow bright green if you swam or surfed there.
Parent Post
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
mock turtle,
I agree with some of what you say but consider Government has ruined self sustaining programs like SS. It is not a free paid benefit. It is a insurance paid by workers for returns in their retirement years. So cut back in benefits comes from government abuse and in expanding services to those who did not contribute, stealing cash on hand. Yes, Government should have cut services in the good times and not now. They are just compounding the problems now. Based on a simple fact Government consumes taxes and private Business produces taxes on top of what workers produce. The dollar is then taxed multiple times compared to lesser times of a government employee only. The max return comes from private business and employees. In a way Government workers just recycle taxes in the cost of government business and is not creating anything.
OB is punishing business, pushing them out of the country and only making people more desperate and dependent on the government. America has played like a drunken teenager and more government is not the answer. As Pissed as we are about Wall street, Business (especially manufacturing)is not to be pounded into the ground but stimulated to restore jobs that mean more stability and taxes. IMO 8-)
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 12:13:51 2009 MST #
mock turtle says:
i agree that the government has been, and is guilty of much waste, but the solution is to improve accountability not reduce gov spending by some double digit number
snips from this article by martin feldstein point out why
"Fall in US household wealth likely to spur a long recession
By Martin Feldstein
Tuesday, Mar 03, 2009, Page 9
(Martin Feldstein, professor of economics at Harvard, was a former chairman of former president Ronald Reagan’s Council of Economic Advisors and a former president of the National Bureau for Economic Research.)
The massive downturn in the US economy will last longer and be more damaging than previous recessions because it is driven by an unprecedented loss of household wealth. snip
the fall in share prices and in home values has destroyed more than US$12 trillion of household wealth in the US, an amount equal to more than 75 percent of GDP.
Previous reactions to declines in household wealth indicate that such a fall will cut consumer spending by about US$500 billion every year until the wealth is restored.
While a higher household saving rate will help to rebuild wealth, it would take more than a decade of relatively high saving rates to restore what was lost.
So the US economy faces a US$750 billion shortfall of demand. snip
Although the recently enacted two-year stimulus package includes a total of US$800 billion of tax reductions and (snip) Most of the tax reductions will be saved by households, rather than used to finance additional spending. (snip)
An optimistic estimate of the direct increase in annual demand from the stimulus package is about US$300 billion in each of the next two years. (thus) The stimulus package would thus fill less than half of the hole in GDP caused by the decline in household wealth and snip.. As demand falls, businesses will reduce production, leading to lower employment and incomes, which in turn will lead to further cuts in consumer spending.
So it is not clear what will occur to reverse the decline in GDP and end the economic downturn....Only time will tell.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2009/03/03/2003437472
Parent Post
mock turtle Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
mock turtle says:
heres the money quote
"the fall in share prices and home values has destroyed more than 12 trillion dollars US of household wealth, an amount equal to more than 75% of GDP" (feldstein)
so we have choices
re direct our demand and mis-allocated capital from plastic, consumables, and fuel hogs to more productive and efficient and investment oriented uses
or
let the entire system collapse to the bottom and maybe it will re-invent itself different than its fraudulent and wastefull past...or may be the past will just repeat itself as we cycle thru again
by the way, financial armegeddon will (WILL) bring forth more than a few mini hitlers and stalins in eastern europe, africa, south america and maybe a few to a country near you!
maybe a resuregeance of communism in easter europe? for all those who way just let it fall
Parent Post
mock turtle Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Counterpointer says:
This is a massive EU slapdown to Geithner who unwisely started blabbing on Thursday how everyone needs to get with the more stimulus program.
Germans must be busy mobilizing this. Darling is presiding over one hell of a sh!tstorm.
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 14 12:15:52 2009 MST #
Pavel says:
"The one sticking point probably would be reducing their military, which overall is an easy problem to have"
It would be damned difficult, IMO.
Pavel Sat Mar 14 12:17:43 2009 MST #
burnside says:
cd, do read the article. He's behaved perfectly, in fact.
burnside Sat Mar 14 12:18:06 2009 MST #
Lawyerliz says:
Well, Trump isn't anywhere near as bad as Madoff, because there was never any doubt about what a jerk he was and is. I mean, if there is any doubt at all, all you have to do is look at the hair. . .
And he never hid the fact that he had gone bk before.
I continue to marvel at the number of wealthy (formerly) people, who ignored my grandmother's admonition about eggs and baskets. When she first said it, I thought by golly, that's true. My hub had also heard that in his youth. How come those others didn't?
Also, I thought that you guys would jump all over me because of the Mexican violence comment, but not. Hmmmmmm. *DONT_KNOW*
Lawyerliz Sat Mar 14 12:20:31 2009 MST #
Sid_nl says:
Trump ... all you have to do is look at the hair. . .
Women!
Parent Post
Sid_nl Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
azurite says:
It's the guy who's got the hair---the woman is simply making an observation about what the choice of having that hair indicates.
Parent Post
azurite Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Paradigm Lost says:
Comrade de Chaos: I'm for ending corporate welfare as we know it...repatriating corporate income generated overseas and income evading taxes in havens. It's time the multinationals start paying their fair share.
If they don't want to, they can relocate to Dubai or China so we don't have to pay for their defense or infrastructure anymore.
Paradigm Lost Sat Mar 14 12:20:41 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
The U.S. Treasury Department will announce more details in the coming week of its proposal for having public-private partnerships take bad assets off banks' books, a senior department official said on Saturday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSWEQ00077620090314
I can hardly wait to see how this little scam is gonna work. I like the British at least they call a taxpayer rip off scheme.
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 12:25:06 2009 MST #
Counterpointer says:
G20 countermoves are likely to be led by Australia (stimulus announced) and Canada (banking vulnerable) backed by the Latins who cannot afford the Spanish banking system to go down. UK will join in, attempting late imperial influence, alternative proposals, which will mostly be unfeasible. Germans get squeezed. Could be interesting.
In the end they throw the whole shizzle over to the IMF, and multilateralize a problem that national coordination doesn't seem to be up to at this point..
C
C
Counterpointer Sat Mar 14 12:26:31 2009 MST #
Fair Economist says:
Fair Econ: "I get much better service from the DMV or the post office than I do from banks"
What loan guidelines would they follow? Would I need to make a donation to the Governor (IL resident) to borrow? Just reinstate the depression era regs and enforce them.
Do you have to make a donation to the governor/mayor to get a driver's license? Receive a package from the post office? No, but you are making a whopper of a donation to Citibank right now.
The depression-era regs might work, but the problem is the phenomenal amounts of money to be made (fraudulently, it turns out) which justify mindblowing donations and lobbyist fees to break them. The banks bought the Congress before, and clearly own a big chunk of it now. Is there any was to stop them from doing it again other than killing them and putting a stake through their hearts?
Fair Economist Sat Mar 14 12:32:41 2009 MST #
cd says:
burnside, your pulling my leg right...he branded the damn thing..he didn't cook the meth he distributed it...does it make him innocent?
As a frequent traveler to Mexico, I can tell you that outside of border towns-Mexico city, its pretty peaceful as are the people..Mexicans were not drug users until recently..but walking around in Ensenada outside of the tourista areas is pretty revealing of what is happening. I was offered everything under the sun on every corner...lots of meth being used by young populace...if you like a little edge after your langosta and cerveza walk 2 blocks east of papas and beer and then south...the tenderloin feels safer...
No violence will start there, a couple blackhawks, insert some rangers or seals and they will shrink back rapido!!
still lots of lobster for us divers though as avatar shows...... :-D
cd Sat Mar 14 12:37:16 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"I continue to marvel at the number of wealthy (formerly) people, who ignored my grandmother's admonition about eggs and baskets. When she first said it, I thought by golly, that's true. My hub had also heard that in his youth. How come those others didn't? "
The many of the new generations of self raised kids did not have parents or grand parents from the depression eduction to learn from. If not taught in schools and the distrust for old thinking is proof of the all your eggs in one basket thinking lost. This is why they need government safety net for their lack of thinking and self control. I was one of the dumb ones who actually sought old folks opinions on these subjects. Paid off for me!
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 12:38:03 2009 MST #
lama says:
"First, there is a legal and logical distinction between the corporation as an entity and the individual shareholders who own the firm." - There's a legal distinction between a vendor and customer. The vendor receives a tax liability upon sale and the customer receives a tax benefit from his expense. In a dividend, the corporation passes over the income to an owner. The corporation did not incur a loss from the transfer, but the individual incurred a benefit.
"Second, the tax rates currently in place were set with the knowledge that there was both a corporate
and individual income tax." - Does Baker suggest that we never have changes to tax laws or tax rates??
"This means that if there is a moral objection to "double taxation" then the appropriate remedy would also require an increase in the corporate income tax..." - No, it would require an increase in either corporate or individual taxes. The latter could be accomplished by taxing at ordinary income tax rates.
lama Sat Mar 14 12:38:28 2009 MST #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
re: Russian bombers & Cuba / Venezuela.
This is intended to scare regular people, not military people. We could take out all the russian bombers in the world in a matter of hours if they went offensive. Yeah, yeah, then they'd retaliate with nukes, and so would we and nightmare. Who knows, maybe this is for real... Putin certainly seems capable of using at least tactical nukes. They're rattling sabres, we're poking around chinese nuclear submarine bases, they're provoking us by dogging our spyships. Meanwhile china is securing long term oil relationship with Russia,and buying up industrial properties worldwide.
Puerto Rico: did we ever find out what's going on over there? I did a quick google for "Puerto Rico" and "FDIC" on google news and got nothing. Maybe it's military personnel staging for cuba?
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Sat Mar 14 12:41:03 2009 MST #
Comrade_Terry says:
Uncle Billy, I e-mailed a Puerto Rican Banker friend yesterday evening, and she reports that nothing 'unusual' is going on, and no one expects anything 'unusual' to happen. 'Unusual' as opposed to their normal, inimitable way of doing business. Stay tuned....
Comrade_Terry Sat Mar 14 12:44:51 2009 MST #
burnside says:
cd, actually no I'm not being ironic.
Trump is in relation to the developer precisely as the hotel Ritz on Place Vendome is in relation to the American Ritz Carlton properties.
burnside Sat Mar 14 12:46:26 2009 MST #
Comrade_Terry says:
Uncle Billy, I should add that one of my personal conjectures is the FDIC is conducting a training retreat at a semi-secluded location in preparation for a larger than normal task. Perhaps FFDIC can shoot some holes in that tinfoilish theory.
Comrade_Terry Sat Mar 14 12:46:57 2009 MST #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
cheers
Parent Post
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
sdtfs says:
I continue to marvel at the number of wealthy (formerly) people, who ignored my grandmother's admonition about eggs and baskets.
Which one? Don't put all your eggs in one? Or put all your eggs in one and watch that basket!
sdtfs Sat Mar 14 12:49:59 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
Mock Turtle,
Do you feel the Lost wealth in the US was real or was it imaginary from leverage out of control?
To me it was imaginary and these rule do not apply. We are in a new era of correcting for what mas never there. I am for almost 80% of stimulus to aid the rebuilding of US manufacturing, business and harvesting known energy like oil, coal, minerals and nuke power. When in trouble go with what you know and will give max returns. We have explored alternative energy for decades and have failed. Time to back up and start from 10-15 years ago economy.
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 12:51:33 2009 MST #
mock turtle says:
i do believe it was real in the sense that debt is money
securities, notes etc can be used as collateral and can be liquidated in secondary markets
the collapse in household wealth, i believe, is real and marks a decrease in US household purchasing power
Parent Post
mock turtle Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Anonymous says:
"I was one of the dumb ones who actually sought old folks opinions on these subjects. Paid off for me!
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-40616-2.html#backToArticle=613102
Banks selling risky Lehman certificates to German retirees in 2007 and 2008 had a special category for customers: OD, for "old and dumb."
Now they are just old and broke.
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 12:59:26 2009 MST #
cd says:
Burnside, I disagree, knowing that are pretty well, with his name being used it led to false security by american investors...a majority of buildings there will sit with 4 walls and no roof forever...part of the mexican re scene..his company putting their branding on it led to the record amount of deposits...if it was sold as is without trumps name it would have been a low turnout with few deposits...Mexican re is a tricky game and his company created and delivered a message otherwise...come on you can't be a trump fan...he's greedy, arrogant and a shining example of why were messed up...
cd Sat Mar 14 13:01:54 2009 MST #
cd says:
first sentence are should be area...
billy- I wouldn't paddle out there unless you gave me a cool mil....heck I wouldn't even go out anywhere near Rosarito now..Calafia or lower..
cd Sat Mar 14 13:08:36 2009 MST #
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget says:
cd: Have you been down to San Quintin in recent years? Any impressions? Made a trip years ago -- nothing but chicken farmers and a single small hotel a hundred miles of huge lonely waves. (Sorry couldn't make this topical, except for the stimulus effect of empty beaches)
Parent Post
Uncle Billy, Mental Widget Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
"i agree that the government has been, and is guilty of much waste, but the solution is to improve accountability not reduce gov spending by some double digit number"
......The only answer is BOTH. First, reduce spending then improve accountability.
"let the entire system collapse to the bottom and maybe it will re-invent itself different than its fraudulent and wastefull past..."
........there is no "letting it" involved. It WILL crash whether we want it to or not. Recessions are part of our economical life. Not letting businesses collapse and not enforcing existing laws = our present situation.
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 13:12:40 2009 MST #
burnside says:
cd, I know you disagree and that's fine, of course.
No, don't think I ever was a fan.
To use your example, though, the US hotel company purchased a license to use the Ritz name - it's costly, and the Paris organization required certain minimum criteria before granting permission. So sometimes you can buy cachet. In effect, the Boston Ritz isn't a Ritz.
But if you had reason to bring suit against the US hotel group, you might consider as well naming the Paris company as defendant. I don't think you'd make much headway, and I'm not sure you should expect to. Similarly, however, and under the circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised if Paris took a closer look at the case. They wouldn't have to, but I expect they would all the same.
Anyway, Trump did and is. It's why I say he's behaved perfectly.
burnside Sat Mar 14 13:20:37 2009 MST #
cd says:
Uncle billy, watch out camping on beach in San Quintin area..bandits working it now...cple friends got robbed s of town near punta baja...Still a farm town down there with same hotel-old mill I'm guessing...
head down south further to Santa Rosallia area, you have to go s of catavina...great waves, surf fishing and diving...I've been flying into Cabo and surfing east cape or todos santos area more now...April thru june picks up southern hemi swells, lots of pt breaks to work..A dog though a hassle is great down there for keeping an eye out if camping on beach...hit and miss..
heck we had some great grouper fillets stolen along with big cooler in loreto, left everything else..must have been hungry..
Burnside-I concede....
cd Sat Mar 14 13:32:07 2009 MST #
EvilHenryPaulson says:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/403653_boeingshanghai14.html
Boeing 787 updates
EvilHenryPaulson Sat Mar 14 13:33:45 2009 MST #
burnside says:
cd, you're a prince.
LawyerLiz doesn't care for him either. I read an interview in NYer a few years ago and let's just say didn't come away with a favorable impression.
burnside Sat Mar 14 13:37:29 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
I have come up with another recession adjustment "idea" (after my 25M max net worth drew mixed opinions last week).
How about (local/state/federal) public service employees (politicians/beaurocrats/police/garbagemen/ etc) and government contractors (wage portion) have their wage tied to some indicator (ie unemployment level). So at 4% unemployment (full employment) they get 100% salary, and at 25% they get around 50% or so. Of course the people figuring out the indicator would have to be external to this. All kinds of other gotchas, but most can be worked around.
My fave for an indicator would be total private sector income divided by total public & private workforce (18 to 65)
Thoughts?
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 13:38:29 2009 MST #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"Now they are just old and broke."
The ones I am talking about ore pretty much gone. The ones who would be 100+ years old. To you I am old but far from broke. Independent is not following the crowd. There are the old and broke dummies for not thinking and being their own master.
;)
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sat Mar 14 13:39:47 2009 MST #
Anonymous says:
"My fave for an indicator would be total private sector income divided by total public & private workforce (18 to 65)"
The cool part of this indicator is that any additional gov hiring would automatically lower everyone's wages in gov. Now that's incentive!
Anonymous Sat Mar 14 13:43:00 2009 MST #
CRbot says:
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CRbot Sat Mar 14 13:44:45 2009 MST #
cd says:
burnside-definitely not a prince, more a serf than anything else......I don't like him and what he stands for, too many people look up to him with his tv fame now, I think his corporations have gone bnkrpt 3 times now....you would make a good lawyer! turned my example around easily...Cheers and have a great wknd...
cd Sat Mar 14 13:54:16 2009 MST #
Black Star Ranch says:
"It's the income tax itself that should be abolished. It is no more the government's proper role to know your income than it is the government's role to know how much and what kind of sex you have." - kidbuck | 11.09.08 - 6:54 am
Black Star Ranch Sat Mar 14 14:13:00 2009 MST #
ppk says:
I get the feeling that China will try and buy Chrysler or GM. Congress will probably try to stop it. Not sure sure what the right response should be..
Upthread, someone mentioned cutting the defence budget. That's going to be hard to do. i'd settle for freezing defence spending into the future and letting inflation bring it down as a percentage of GDP. An empire is something which we cannot afford at the moment.
IMHO, healthcare is our biggest challenge. If we can have basic coverage for everyone, that would take a huge burden of 95% of US households.
ppk Sat Mar 14 14:21:10 2009 MST #
Don says:
"I get the feeling that China will try and buy Chrysler or GM. Congress will probably try to stop it. Not sure sure what the right response should be."
I think a sale of Chrysler would go through. There is no prospect of a happy ending there and the Pols would rather not run the shutdown. GM can probably be kept alive another decade (and used for Uncles Sam's green science project), so it's prospects as a long term ward of the state are "brighter".
I'm not sure that the Chinese really want to own an American auto company. They are getting the tech already from the Joint Ventures. They don't want to inherit the legacy costs. The distribution and dealer networks are oversized for the business and are shows the effects of years of underinvestment. Maybe they'll buy a trademark (someone'd pony up for Buick) or some tooling in a couple years at a liquidation price but I think the fools with a hankering for a first world brand have been parted from their money.
Parent Post
Don Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969 MST #
artichoke says:
Cornholio quoted: Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday the German state would only be able to pay a price that conformed with usual market values for stricken lender Hypo Real Estate.
German government officials will meet with stakeholder JC Flowers on Sunday in a fresh attempt to get the U.S. investor to give up his stake in Hypo Real Estate.
"What we cannot do now, is pay prices which are not consistent with the values usual in the market," Merkel told Deutschlandfunk radio. "
Perfect.And that should be the US position as well.
And the values have to be computed with real mark-to-market, not the "modified" version they are now debating.
I am afraid that the foreigners want us to "meet our obligations" by further bailouts of the banks where they are bondholders or counterparties. We should never have started that and should stop now throwing our good money after bad.
artichoke Sat Mar 14 14:31:13 2009 MST #
END