Comments for "More Stories of Falling Apartment Rents"

Nemo says:

(customary "bottoming process" comment)

Nemo Thu Apr 2 17:43:30 2009 CDT #

CRbot says:

This comment thread has been CRC-IZED by yagij (CRbot helped a little).

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CRbot Thu Apr 2 17:45:58 2009 CDT #

Jay D. says:

.............really?...............

Jay D. Thu Apr 2 17:46:56 2009 CDT #

bearly says:

Inflationary ?

bearly Thu Apr 2 17:49:08 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

Subtract in a whole slew of "incentives"...

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 17:51:33 2009 CDT #

monta\'s ankle says:

but I thought the 4 trillion bailout dollars would produce inflation?

oh yes, velocity

monta\'s ankle Thu Apr 2 17:52:20 2009 CDT #

Some Investor Guy says:

Two anecdotes do not make for an overall drop. Overall rents virtually never drop for a metropolitan area. Neighborhoods yes, whole metros areas, almost not at all.

If you look at the CPI index component for rent, you will see that it virtually never goes down. If you look very very hard, you will find a couple of instances where it declines. Even Detroit, which has been losing population for decades, has had only one slight drop (2007-2008, much less than 1%). See for yourself. Go to http://www.bls.gov/CPI/#data , click on your favorite city and look up 30+ years of history.

Some Investor Guy Thu Apr 2 17:52:28 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Some Investor Guy,
Housing vacancy rates have also never declined since 1980

Parent Post

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:00:48 2009 CDT #

Kung Fu Panda says:

Another tidbit from Seattle:

"By Christine Clarridge
Seattle Times staff reporter

An out-of-town visitor was sent to the hospital with a serious head injury this week after he was assaulted while trying to retrieve a necklace that had been snatched off his body by a panhandler in Pioneer Square.

According to Seattle police, the 25-year-old Oregon man was near the intersection of Occidental Avenue South and Yesler Way around 1:40 a.m. on Tuesday when he was approached by a panhandler asking for money.

The panhandler grabbed the chain from the victim's neck and assaulted the victim when he tried to retrieve it, according to police.

When police arrived, they found the victim unconscious and bleeding on the ground. He was taken to Harborview Medical Center.

The incident is not the first of its kind.

Late last month, a man called police to say that he had been punched in the back of the head when he refused to give money to a beggar.

According to the March 20 police report, the victim was on Blanchard Avenue in Belltown at around 2 a.m. when he was approached by a panhandler.

When the victim refused to give, "he was pushed to the ground by the male and then punched in the back of the head," according to police.

That man was transported to Virginia Mason Hospital with abrasions and a "large lump" on his head."

Pioneer Square and Belltown aren't exactly havens in broad daylight; they are good places not to be in the wee hours. Oh, and these aren't panhandlers...outright muggers.

Kung Fu Panda Thu Apr 2 17:52:39 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

Using significant judgment, does this mean MBS's are worth more? =-X

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 17:53:57 2009 CDT #

Broward Horne says:

You want an apartment rent story?

HERE is your apartment rent story!

http://www.gunaxin.com/pimp-pays-teenage-prostitute-with-mcnuggets/16394

"some master plan to afford rent on their downtown apartment. Gander would receive all the money... and the prostitute would receive nothing except for the occasional box of chicken nuggets"

Barter in action.

Broward Horne Thu Apr 2 17:55:32 2009 CDT #

Giezcubed says:

So it's a Casino when the market's increasing and it's accurate when declining. I miss conjure...battery must be dead.

Next Up: CRE, Credit Cards, and Insurance Co's...

Giezcubed Thu Apr 2 17:56:05 2009 CDT #

Float says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=louXPUW7tHU

Float Thu Apr 2 17:57:05 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

4 trillion produces inflation "on paper". As production falls, inflation in product price takes hold.

Then you'll see 4 trillion doesn't buy much.

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 17:58:22 2009 CDT #

Broward Horne says:

"click on your favorite city and look up 30+ years of history"
-----------------

K-wave lifespan is double that.
Your sample data is skewed.

Broward Horne Thu Apr 2 18:01:30 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

I should also add, that private credit outstanding has never decreased on record until now (goes back to 1954 maybe?)

This time is different until proven otherwise (private credit resumes growth, vacancy rate does not fall)

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:03:55 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

After 9/11 I rented a rent-stabilized (regulated) apartment for less than the legal limit.

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:04:10 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

In Manhattan.

Parent Post

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:04:42 2009 CDT #

Outsider says:

This is a long article but a good read from my NH area:

http://fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090402/GJNEWS_01/704029742

About the growing # of families needing subsidized and/or public housing, and the waiting list being a couple years long in some areas. The person they interviewed brought up some good points, such as how affordable units do not work when the factor is unemployment because low rents aren't low enough. Also the point that the govt. controls the # of section 8 private unit subsidies that are available, and his opinion is that the only fix (for here anyway) is to get a govt. increase of section 8 subsidies. Other than that, there are familiees (growing #s of emergency housing needs) that have NO WHERE to go.

Housing surplus or no housing surplus, there is a need for govt. subsidies to turn some of that surplus housing (not that we have that here anyway) into options for struggling/unemployed families.

Sorry for being a windbag.

Outsider Thu Apr 2 18:06:15 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

I'm happy to subsidize housing with taxes on my short term capital gains from SRS.

Homelessness is bad for families.

What do you say, dawg?

Parent Post

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:13:33 2009 CDT #

MsAnnaNOLA says:

Govt subsidies have kept rents in New Orleans artificially high I think. There are nice places you can rent for less than what the slumlords rent places for to section 8 people. (maybe is is a premium because they are going to trash the place, but I am not sure.)

Parent Post

MsAnnaNOLA Thu Apr 2 18:32:27 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Hows that go? This isn't your fathers recession?

nades Thu Apr 2 18:09:37 2009 CDT #

Lucifer says:

Two points..

1. Looks like the begining of deflation. Deflation is caused by reduction of credit and money in the "real" economy. An increase in the balance sheets of banks and other financial institutions is not inflationary as long as it not lent out.

I am certainly not ruling out inflation once money starts flowing, but till then it is deflation.

2. To those who say that rents cannot drop like housing prices, I have this to say - Past performance may not predict future performance. We are certainly not in a garden variety recession, indeed in some ways this "event" might change our world more than GD1.

Lucifer Thu Apr 2 18:11:59 2009 CDT #

bearly says:

[Overall rents virtually never drop for a...]

Yeah right. And national home prices never drop, and blah blah blah. Rents are dropping in my village. I checked with a rental service and they *CONFIRMED* that vacancies UP and rents DECLINING across the metro. This will continue as long as new properties are acquired in FC and vacancies stay high. It's very basic economics.

bearly Thu Apr 2 18:12:23 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Household formation is also rapidly changing. It might be temporary. (12 months maybe) It might be longer.

nades Thu Apr 2 18:14:37 2009 CDT #

briwerk says:

"in some ways this "event" might change our world more than GD1."

Quoted for truth. I would say it will have the biggest impact on the US of any event since WW2. With Vietnam and GWOT coming in at distant 2nd and 3rd places.

briwerk Thu Apr 2 18:14:52 2009 CDT #

scone says:

@ Outsider -- you're not a windbag. Thanks for the article. I guess the 'workforce housing law' isn't doing much to help either? Can they place people in Fannie/Freddie Reos? There is talk about doing that here, or at least suspending foreclosure proceedings for people who take in families.

scone Thu Apr 2 18:17:55 2009 CDT #

monta\'s ankle says:

admittedly OT, but :

FDIC May Let Banks Share Profit From Distressed Loans They Sell

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1yQ6SYGfUqo&refer=home

a couple of nice nuggets:

"No final decision has been made and the FDIC is still considering whether the program should include publicly issued debt."

so much for the FDIC taxing the 'good banks'

"Wigand said letting banks take an equity stake in the vehicles buying the loans wouldn’t violate conflict-of-interest policies designed to ensure banks don’t take unfair positions on both sides of a transaction."

What? The buy side becomes the sell side - they don;t even have to try to hide the fact that they are gaming the system then.

monta\'s ankle Thu Apr 2 18:18:27 2009 CDT #

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:

Any landlord who bought on ten with out a very big down payment will soon learn a lesson.

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Thu Apr 2 18:18:53 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Lobbi$t Ben Dover,
Any updates on the car salesman renter?

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:20:16 2009 CDT #

Outsider says:

"Can they place people in Fannie/Freddie Reos? "

Scone - we don't have a whole lotta vacant housing here - probably little to none. Our housing market has always been on the short side to begin with.

Outsider Thu Apr 2 18:20:25 2009 CDT #

Some Investor Guy says:

EvilPaulson, homeowner vacancy rates have risen and fallen since 1980. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/historic/index.html

However, they haven't been this high before.

Rental vacancy rates were about as high in 2005, 2006 and 2007 as 2008. However, I know a leasing agent of a very large LA apartment complex. They have not seen people with foreclosures applying in any quantity to move in. Those people might be moving in with friends or relatives, or going to smaller complexes which don't check credit. Contrary to State of CA statistics, she believes people are leaving LA. Why? Not many people from out of town moving to LA, lots of tenants moving the other way.

Some Investor Guy Thu Apr 2 18:21:38 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Not many people from out of town moving to LA, lots of tenants moving the other way. ~SIG

Its even more rampant in the transident parts of town. Here in San Diego there is (was) a steady stream of people from the east moving out for a few years to go bananas. This year they arent coming yet the ones from previous years are returning.

Parent Post

nades Thu Apr 2 18:47:17 2009 CDT #

Sniglet says:

So just where is everyone disappearing to? We have increasing volumes of foreclosed sitting vacant at the very same time that appartment complexes are losing tenants and having to drop prices.

Is everyone moving to tent cities?

Sniglet Thu Apr 2 18:22:13 2009 CDT #

Some Investor Guy says:

Evil Henry, I don't get your point about some correlation between expansion of credit and rental vacancy.

Some Investor Guy Thu Apr 2 18:22:56 2009 CDT #

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:

EHP,

Paid and current now. The car sales slump caught him.

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Thu Apr 2 18:23:01 2009 CDT #

nova says:

Does this mean my gloomitis is wasted? We are recovering? I don't want it! Someone hold me. What will I occupy my brain with? My job? A life?

nova Thu Apr 2 18:23:07 2009 CDT #

scone says:

@ Outsider - so, do you think people will just migrate out of NH, then?

scone Thu Apr 2 18:23:35 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Some Investor Guy,
I can't open excel right now, so I'm going by memory. What I meant to say was the vacancy rates never went below S&L levels, which I interpret as being the S&L crisis was never resolved but just rolled over into this greater bubble

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:24:42 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

would that rewritten statement be accurate? or does my memory fail me

Parent Post

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:25:15 2009 CDT #

Outsider says:

"Outsider - so, do you think people will just migrate out of NH, then?"

That depends to where. Free vaca to Tahiti? Maybe. Other than that - doubt it. Surrounding states really are no panacea.

Outsider Thu Apr 2 18:25:02 2009 CDT #

Broward Horne says:

"Is everyone moving to tent cities?"

-------

Discussed many times. The ratio of occupants to housing has steadily declined for thirty years. There's plenty of elasticity in the housing market to absorb many slackers.

Broward Horne Thu Apr 2 18:28:34 2009 CDT #

scone says:

What will I occupy my brain with? My job? A life? - nova
.
Finish the novel, start a new one, repeat...

scone Thu Apr 2 18:29:42 2009 CDT #

nova says:

Obama said "The patient is stablized" I guess it is hope the miracle feed of IV money works or else?

nova Thu Apr 2 18:31:27 2009 CDT #

Giezcubed says:

With all of the homes and converted condos now coming on the rental circuit...widespread pressure on rents over the next year would be a very reasonable next step.

I've put the majority of my cash in on Nov 20th, oil over cmas, energy and remaining cash was "all-in" in early March 8% Monday decline. The cycle has a very discernable pattern imo

Giezcubed Thu Apr 2 18:32:14 2009 CDT #

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:

I am haveing more groups of renters in one house. 2-4 splitting rent truns out to be agood deal for most of them. I have a real good manager that screens folks well.

Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Thu Apr 2 18:32:26 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Some Investor Guy,
Expansion of private credit has been the crutch of the economy. Unemployment? No problem, put it on the credit card? $800bn put into the economy from MEW, sure we can sell that condo for $2,000 psf to someone moving up the housing ladder

People could afford holding vacant properties when prices were increasing, they can't anymore. The market must clear ex-bubble.

We have loads of housing on the one hand, and worse than stagnant but declining demand. So to clear the market house prices must fall. As house prices fall, new landlords can offer even lower rents and stay cash flow positive. That cycle doesn't stop until we get to say less than 6-10 months of listings:sales inventory.

I'm all over the map, easiest to ask the question why would rents not fall (I'm speaking in general, national terms. Every market is local, it just happens there is excess supply and declining demand in about every market)

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:32:39 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

We built more housing than we can afford. Let's make the best use of it at least. The kind of moral hazard that puts a family in a decent house is the kind I can live with.

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:34:40 2009 CDT #

Barley says:

This will help the 1 in 10 that is on a food stamp program, right?

God Bless Us One and All.

Barley Thu Apr 2 18:35:01 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Don't fight the FED. Even if you are part of it.

Gary Stern, the Federal Reserve’s longest-serving policy maker and an outspoken critic of bank bailouts, will retire from the central bank within months. Stern, 64, has led the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis since 1985 and is the only member of the Federal Open Market Committee to serve with three central-bank chairmen: Ben S. Bernanke, Alan Greenspan, and Paul Volcke

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aWUcbk2ljXMM&refer=us

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 18:36:55 2009 CDT #

RockyR says:

Andectotally, it would seem that rents are rising in DFW.

RockyR Thu Apr 2 18:39:44 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

The cynic says rents never fall because the landed interests control the money supply. They bail themselves out with printed money and let the renter eat inflation.

Rent Control in NYC was a war of sorts. Returning WWII vets without jobs were not put out in the street.

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:40:30 2009 CDT #

dr munch says:

Re: the gentleman who had his necklace ripped off in an attack in Seattle. He should feel thankful, cuz a real dude don't wear no f'in necklace.

dr munch Thu Apr 2 18:40:32 2009 CDT #

Br\'er Dawg says:

This is inflationary right?

Seriously, "lowering rents" sounds like lower room rates are a marketing strategy. It is a survival issue at this point. If your business model didn't have some massive slack in utilization rates you are dead. The only thing keeping you alive is that the banks don't dare call your loans. Once again we find the more irresponsible you were the more you are protected from the consequences.

1 currency now [yogi] asks: Today, 4:13:33 PM PDT
I'm happy to subsidize housing with taxes on my short term capital gains from SRS. Homelessness is bad for families.

I say you raise the "teach a man to fish" paradox. Homelessness is short term bad for families but "preventing" homelessness is ultimately long term bad for them and society.

Br\'er Dawg Thu Apr 2 18:40:48 2009 CDT #

EvilHenryPaulson says:

Some Investor Guy,
How about this. We had higher incomes during the credit bubble than the 'natural economy', CR had a good post about how people treated MEW as regular income when it came to savings.

Because of the higher income, rents went up which spurred housing prices and renting/ownership prices danced their way up into the clouds.

Now that we are ex-bubble, just like it didn't matter if renting/owning was more in demand (they reinforced each other), the same is true in reverse. There is an excess supply of housing that we have not cleared in 2 decades. If there is excess supply in the ownership category, then prices fall and lure away renters. Same goes for renting.

Personally, I know of a lot of people who moved out of permanent rental stock and into former speculator condos for cheaper rent/better digs. Now rental prices are being dragged down along with ownership prices. Housing stock is fungible like that.

EvilHenryPaulson Thu Apr 2 18:43:25 2009 CDT #

Bob Dobbs says:

I've lived the last 30 years in towns like San Francisco, Santa Cruz: desirable coastal California destination towns where people want to be despite high costs. Apartment- and house-sharing by 30-, 40-, and even 50- year-olds is not uncommon. One of my 30-something co-workers and her boyfriend here in the Cruz just moved out of an apartment to share a house with another couple and save some cash.

We're just going to see more of that everywhere. Plus the people who just move back in with Mom and Dad. Seen a bit of that lately, too, among acquaintances.

I don't expect rents here to plummet. But they sure aren't going to rise much.

Bob Dobbs Thu Apr 2 18:43:54 2009 CDT #

Barley says:

In the mean time the masses are forming....

"About 10,000 teachers protested against pay cuts in Latvia on Thursday, piling further pressure on a government trying to meet the terms of an international rescue package and stop the country going bankrupt.

Latvia last year took a 7.5-billion-euro rescue led by the International Monetary Fund and European Union. It has fallen behind on the terms of the loan and the prime minister has said this meant Latvia missed out on an IMF payment.

Part of the rescue package involves cutting public spending, including wages"

Barley Thu Apr 2 18:44:26 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

For the SRS investors out there (FYI - I've begun buying back in at $50) I will point out that Equity Residential is the 4th largest holding in IYR, which is the index SRS tracks double inverse.

IYR is up about 30% from its lows. Apparently there is a lot of money that thinks CRE is greatly undervalued.

Equity Rez (EQR) almost hit $20 today from a 52 week low of $15. Google has their current P/E ratio at 145.

I'm enjoying all of the happy talk these days. I figure we have some life left in this rally. the smart money is getting into CRE at these bargain prices.

I remember last spring when the market kept climbing in the face of all the bad news, the experts were saying how the market had priced in the recession and how the smart money was "looking across the valley" of the recession to the bright future and all the talk of a second half recovery. Lots of talk of resistance on the SnP at 1,225. They fought like hell to defend that.

And the american consumer would never stop spending.

It sure sounded good back then. Sounds good right now.

I'm hoping to buy FAZ in the single digits.

12th Percentile Thu Apr 2 18:49:03 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

I still always think of Jimi, America's gift to mankind, homeless for years, wouldn't get a job, just sat around strumming.

Sure, he was motivated to achieve, but I'm glad he didn't starve.

Teach a man to share his extra fish, and someone else can make music.

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 18:54:43 2009 CDT #

Ehp says:

Ehp is loving crcizer

Ehp Thu Apr 2 18:56:19 2009 CDT #

briwerk says:

"Ehp is loving crcizer"

Nice to hear Ehp. Who else is loving CRCizer?

briwerk Thu Apr 2 18:57:26 2009 CDT #

dr munch says:

The double inverse funds are like crack. You know they're bad for you, you know it's a road to the bottom, but you think you can enjoy them before it's a problem. FD: SRS holder. Seriously, tho, chart URE vs. SRS for one year (easy on Bloomberg.com)

dr munch Thu Apr 2 18:57:53 2009 CDT #

yagij says:

"Ehp is loving crcizer"
Loving it enough to just post how much he is loving it?

yagij Thu Apr 2 18:58:08 2009 CDT #

nades says:

Apparently there is a lot of money that thinks CRE is greatly undervalued. ~12th

The same people who still think they are getting a pony? Just curious....

nades Thu Apr 2 18:58:09 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

Falling rents and falling home prices are two sides of the same coin: excess housing supply.

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 18:59:31 2009 CDT #

CRbot says:

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CRbot Thu Apr 2 18:59:34 2009 CDT #

Ehp says:

yogi
Jimi went to highschool in Vancouver

Sorry about the marijuana

Ehp Thu Apr 2 18:59:38 2009 CDT #

Ehp says:

yogi
Jimi went to highschool in Vancouver

Sorry about the marijuana

Ehp Thu Apr 2 19:00:31 2009 CDT #

1 currency now [yogi] says:

No, Seattle. He had some relatives in vancouver.

Parent Post

1 currency now [yogi] Thu Apr 2 19:04:46 2009 CDT #

Ted says:

I'm actually on my way (as soon as I finish writing this) to sign a lease for an apartment in Pasadena. It was $2500 a month last year (1bed/2bath/loft), just north of the Colorado Blvd district. (About a block above the 210.) Then it went vacant for a while, and the landlady dropped it to $2,250. She finally dropped it to $2,000 last week. So we're moving in this weekend.

Ted Thu Apr 2 19:10:11 2009 CDT #

12th Percentile says:

" Seriously, tho, chart URE vs. SRS for one year"

You won't make money holding these for a year. But if you pay attention to the underlying index and hold for a few months, there is plenty to be made.

Now, I saw someone post here last week that SRS was near a 52 week low. that isn't something i give a damn about.

I've been told that buying SRS is a fools errand many times. I bought a nice chunk at 45 today. I bet I can get a 20% return on that in the next few months. Possibly much higher. That's all I want. Up 30% already for the year sitting on a bunch of cash waiting out this rally.

the key is patience. SRS seemed like a great buy at $60. I've been sitting on cash for a while with my buys set up at $50, $45 and $40. Perhaps I'll get lucky and it will go down into the 30s.

And don't get greedy. I bought FAS at 2.40 a few weeks ago. Got stop lossed out with a 20% return. Not bad. Not the 200% i could've had but still not bad.

patience and controlling your greed and understanding what you are investing in (or against) and this works pretty well.

12th Percentile Thu Apr 2 19:22:24 2009 CDT #

nova says:

This is a great comment system

nova Thu Apr 2 19:28:55 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

got my apt renewal notice a couple days ago (suburban baltimore). slight increase in rent.

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 20:08:20 2009 CDT #

Paul says:

I just received a 12% reduction in my rent, in exchange for signing a 12-month lease. This is in central Orange County, California. It's a very nice, upper end apartment complex.

Paul Thu Apr 2 20:34:04 2009 CDT #

Passerby says:

The luxury apartment leasing group that I currently rent from in San Diego is at least 15% below what they had budgeted for occupancy. They have been running heavily discounted specials. I negotiated a lower rent amount than I was paying last year.

One of my neighbors moved out in the middle of the night and disappeared a few weeks ago after non-payment of their rent for a few months. Several units around me are sitting vacant.

Passerby Thu Apr 2 22:12:20 2009 CDT #

Anonymous says:

In my apartment building in Manhattan I can now rent a 2BR for what I paid for a 1BR six months ago. Rents are plummetting here. Until Wall Street starts hiring again (which may be never) rents and home prices will keep dropping. It is bleak for the over-leveraged, but bittersweet for those of us who acted responsibly.

Anonymous Thu Apr 2 22:19:03 2009 CDT #

Jamie says:

Anecdotal I know but I've been renting since 1999, 6 years in Germany and 4 in Belgium. My rent has changed once and its when I moved country in 2005.

Jamie Fri Apr 3 03:01:07 2009 CDT #

kidbuck says:

Broward Horne says:

“Discussed many times. The ratio of occupants to housing has steadily declined for thirty years. There's plenty of elasticity in the housing market to absorb many slackers.”

That’s why it’s not very meaningful to call people homeless. Having a home of one’s own is not the default human condition. They should more accurately be called friendless or familieless. My MIL & FIL (during the first great depression) lived with their families into their forties, even after they started having children. My mother lived with my paternal grandparents while I was being born. This is the default human condition for most of human history.


kidbuck Fri Apr 3 06:01:06 2009 CDT #

kidbuck says:

JS Kit is making Haloscan look better everyday.

Parent Post

kidbuck Fri Apr 3 06:03:56 2009 CDT #

Outsider says:

"That’s why it’s not very meaningful to call people homeless. Having a home of one’s own is not the default human condition. They should more accurately be called friendless or familieless. My MIL & FIL (during the first great depression) lived with their families into their forties, even after they started having children. My mother lived with my paternal grandparents while I was being born. This is the default human condition for most of human history."

Is that culturally relevant anymore? The family unit has changed. Now we have a web of step-parents, single parent families, geographically widespread and not-as-connected relationships. Yeah, in the 30s & 40s you had multi-generational, some even beyond, but can you name more than 10 multi's you know today?

Our family structures are no longer safety nets, many being too splintered and shattered themselves to take on any new stress. Hence, homelessness increasing.

Outsider Fri Apr 3 07:15:37 2009 CDT #