Comments for Geithner to Announce "Toxic" Plan before 9:30 AM ET
CRbot says:
This comment thread has been HALO-IZED by CRbot.
http://realize.org/cr/halokit.php?halourl=http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/4798210392963625936
CRbot Sun Mar 22 19:11:53 2009 CDT #
volker the viking says:
first .1?
volker the viking Sun Mar 22 19:14:21 2009 CDT #
adornosghost says:
zero?
adornosghost Sun Mar 22 19:14:30 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
third?
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:16:32 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Moody's screwed up.
Now we're supposed to trust it?
Please.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:16:35 2009 CDT #
cap says:
if you had to choose, TBT or GLD?
cap Sun Mar 22 19:17:12 2009 CDT #
sm_landlord says:
Short or long term?
Personally I favor GLD.
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sm_landlord Sun Mar 22 20:33:16 2009 CDT #
course-correct says:
At this point, does it matter who pays? Life is going change for all of us...
course-correct Sun Mar 22 19:18:57 2009 CDT #
Yalt says:
At this point, does it matter who pays? Life is going change for all of us...
Looks like somebody's been successfully Shocked and Awed.
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Yalt Sun Mar 22 19:29:07 2009 CDT #
scone says:
Several trillion good reasons to get out of this country.
scone Sun Mar 22 19:19:16 2009 CDT #
AIG is helping Al-Qaeda says:
"A few trillionreasons to get out of the country. "
Already left.
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AIG is helping Al-Qaeda Sun Mar 22 19:49:25 2009 CDT #
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover says:
"Will it work?" Maybe, but at what cost?"
"Back to the future" the depression and start over. :(
Lobbyi$t Ben Dover Sun Mar 22 19:20:42 2009 CDT #
lawn grass says:
I started a new company selling fantastic elixer that will make on healthy.
Oooops, it seems the elixer was toxic.
I have a bunch of this elixer in my warehouses.
Let the taxpayer buy it.
Good plan.
lawn grass Sun Mar 22 19:20:53 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
f'n ridiculous plan.
Guest Sun Mar 22 19:22:33 2009 CDT #
Basel Too says:
still no solutions on addressing the balance sheet of the consumer, other than the shibboleths of "job creation" or "unlocking credit."
Basel Too Sun Mar 22 19:23:02 2009 CDT #
gibbon1 says:
This is were I think the whole thing falls apart. Allowing banks to sell then buy back their bad debt at pennies on the dollar is very good for those that run/leach off the finance sector, but leaves the rest of the economy collapsing under unsupportable debt. If
Right now cash is king. What this does is leave the bankers holding all the cards. Essentially the baby boom just sold itself down the river.
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gibbon1 Mon Mar 23 04:54:38 2009 CDT #
The Great Tupuli says:
Well, it's clear that Obama really doesn't mind the threat of riots.
I can't imagine what's going to happen when 15% unemployment is here an people realize that their taxes subsidized the purchase of their repossessed houses. What will be especially funny is if/when they figure out that they were willing to pay more for said house than the current owner.
Is there a triple inverse ETF on the USA? (Denominated in Disney dollars, of course)
The Great Tupuli Sun Mar 22 19:23:31 2009 CDT #
Bob in MA says:
Those thinking the plan will encourage investors to pay more than these assets are worth are wrong. If I only hat to put up 5% to buy something, I'm still not going to price it above what I see as necessary for a reasonable return.
Funds that by high risk distressed debt, don't pay more than they think will allow them a very hefty 200+% return.
The math is not going to allow them to pay much more than current market rates.
Bob in MA Sun Mar 22 19:23:36 2009 CDT #
Calculated Risk says:
Bob, if you are correct about prices, then nothing will happen (no assets will be purchased). There are plenty of buyers right now - just no sellers at those prices.
If this doesn't increase the price funds are willing to pay, then no assets will be purchased. Hopefully we will know if anything is happening.
best wishes.
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Calculated Risk Sun Mar 22 19:27:06 2009 CDT #
Blackhalo says:
"no sellers at those prices."
From fear of having to mark the transaction as a severe loss, showing the banks to be the insolvent POSs we suspect them to be?
Where, oh where is the transparency O' promised? Why is he taking the council of this inept banker of a treasury secretary. This cockamamie plan shows just what an incompetent Geitner is. Why could O' not have appointed someone more adversarial to the banks, who were at the core of this bubble, to the job.
O' needs to make the case as to why it is worse for the USA if these banks BK than their zombificaton. My suspicion is that they have been paying the bills for big expensive elections, more so than any functional necessity. How hard would it be to replace them with thier competitors or a "good bank" plan.
Is Volker Really on-board with this course of action?
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Blackhalo Sun Mar 22 21:17:48 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
The banks will find someone to buy them for them for a small fee, lose 5% or so and dump the crap on the taxpayer for and take a much lower loss. This thing tis going to be a scam a lie and a fraud with the only intention of shifting the loses to the governments balance sheet. This country can't function without lies, fraud and abuse.
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Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:18:18 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
Thats how it goes
Everybody knows
Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died
Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows...
Guest Sun Mar 22 19:25:00 2009 CDT #
REBear says:
GB promised exit strategy before going to a war. We are stuck fighting 2 wars.
BO promised promised middle class change. Middle class will be left counting pennies.
REBear Sun Mar 22 19:25:49 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Government of the Banks, for the Banks, by the Banks
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:25:58 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
This was asked in the previous thread:
The sellers of CDS did sell their product to the firms with the deepest pockets.
What are the probabilities that the largest CDS' counter-parties are in fact our creditors: China, Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc.?
Black Star Ranch Sun Mar 22 19:26:26 2009 CDT #
Yalt says:
So the question isn't "Is this the optimal solution?" (it isn't) but "Will it work?" Maybe, but at what cost?
"Work" doesn't mean what you think it means.
In all seriousness, the question "what do we mean by a plan 'working'?" is far more important than the mere technical questions here. Avoiding that question is what allows schemes to allow banks and politically-connected hedge funds to meet the treasury as plans to save the economy.
Yalt Sun Mar 22 19:26:38 2009 CDT #
Max says:
Everybody knows this is nowhere.
Everybody, everybody knows
Max Sun Mar 22 19:27:04 2009 CDT #
NYCityBoy says:
"Everybody knows this is nowhere.
Everybody, everybody knows"
I'm sorry for the things I've done
I've shamed myself with lies
But soon these things are overcome
And can't be recognized
It's amazing how guys like Neil are still so relevant so many years after they sang such lines.
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NYCityBoy Sun Mar 22 19:50:04 2009 CDT #
mark says:
You know it's getting bad when Steve Kroft asks Obama if he's punch drunk.
mark Sun Mar 22 19:29:22 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
You and I will be purchasing these assets. A few "private" parties will auction to set prices and the rest will be bought by you and I through pension funds, 401k plans etc.
Kashkari already stated a month ago that he expected the majority of the private capital for this program to come from pension plans.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 22 19:30:01 2009 CDT #
The Great Tupuli says:
Bob, what if I buy your assets at 1.5x market value and you buy mine at 1.5 market value? We both win.
Ignoring outright fraud, 5% is not enough skin in the game to ensure rational behavior.
The Great Tupuli Sun Mar 22 19:30:23 2009 CDT #
Myr says:
The plan is an obvious scam. It allows the investor to walk away with the remaining coupons payments and then leave the government holding the worthless remains once those coupons stop being paid. The key to understanding the scam is the combination of high leverage AND non-recourse financing. Just follow this example:
Investor buys a CDO tranche at 50 cents on the dollar that is currently paying a 5% coupon. The investor puts up 20% and the govt provides the remaining 80% via a non-recourse loan. This highly leveraged CDO tranche will stay current on the coupon payments for 3 years and then default with zero residual value.
The end result is that the investor who pays 10 cents(20% X 50 cent bid) ends up walking away with 15 cents(.05 X 3) over three years and the government ends up losing the entire 40 cents of non-recourse financing. (Note that I haven’t included the cost of the low interest financing, nor used present value discounting in order to simplify the point I’m trying to make.)
The beauty of the scam is that the losses on the govt’s books won’t show up for 3 years.
The fair value for the bad asset is actually just *10 cents*, but the investor will be willing to pay 50 cents because the government is willing to provide non-recourse financing. The investor makes money and the government losses 40 cents. That 40 cent subsidy will come from your pocket and go directly to the bank that gets to sell it’s toxic waste at absurdly inflated prices. The bank then turns around and pays off it’s creditor’s at 100 cents on the dollar. Yeee-ha!
Myr Sun Mar 22 19:31:09 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
scone says:
“Several trillion good reasons to get out of this country...
Hope you go to Afghanistan or Iraq !
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:31:20 2009 CDT #
Max says:
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought one reason "banks refuse to lend" has to do with a lack of credit-worthy borrowers. Even if the bank balance sheets are fixed, there's still a missing step before lending can resume.
Max Sun Mar 22 19:32:27 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
I don't think brad has it so wrong
Then we have worse things to worry about than government losses on TARP-program money--for we are then in a world in which the only things that have value are bottled water, sewing needles, and ammunition
punditry Sun Mar 22 19:33:52 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
150 billion comes from the TARP in the form of equity, $820 billion from the FDIC in the form of debt, and $30 billion from the hedge fund and pension fund managers who will be hired to make the investments and run the program's operations.
can we define equity?
punditry Sun Mar 22 19:35:13 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
BASIC QUESTION: Can an MBS be "unwound" in order to make individual properties available within that packet?
Black Star Ranch Sun Mar 22 19:35:30 2009 CDT #
Basel Too says:
for we are then in a world in which the only things that have value are bottled water, sewing needles, and ammunition
what, is delong channeling his inner Hank Paulson?
Basel Too Sun Mar 22 19:35:44 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
If we were investing in a normal hedge fund, we would have to pay the managers 2% of the capital and 20% of the profits every year; the Treasury is only paying 0% of the capital value and 17% of the profits every year
are there that many funds still claiming a take of 20%?
punditry Sun Mar 22 19:36:37 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
No: making money is a sidelight. The Treasury is doing this to reduce unemployment.
omfg...for who, the hedgies? guying toxic asset's reduce's unemployment, exactly, how?
punditry Sun Mar 22 19:38:15 2009 CDT #
punditry says:
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/03/the-geithner-plan-faq.html
who pays that guy
punditry Sun Mar 22 19:40:22 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Well if Moody's is behind this idea, it must be correct.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:41:08 2009 CDT #
locust says:
Bob, what if I buy your assets at 1.5x market value and you buy mine at 1.5 market value? We both win.
They already tried that. It's called Iceland. Didn't work out too well.
locust Sun Mar 22 19:41:42 2009 CDT #
REBear says:
Banksters are going to go nuts tomorrow if only pension funds are allowed to participate.
If i'm allowed to participate, i'll buy the riskiest of assets available. Take 10+% interest payments for two years and then dump the toxins on you taxpayers.
REBear Sun Mar 22 19:44:30 2009 CDT #
NYCityBoy says:
If Zandi likes the plan then you know it is a piece of crap. Just Google that idiot's name and you can see all of the stupid nonsense he has spewed the past few years. His calls on housing were laughable. He was one of McCain's economic advisers. That is what made McCain sound so smart on the economy.
The question has to be, "why do they keep asking the same morons their opinion?" over and over again. But of course, we know the answer. Tools like Zandi spew the bullsh-t that they love so much. He's their kind of tool.
NYCityBoy Sun Mar 22 19:45:10 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
This is a good plan unless you're short these securities and equities. DOH!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:46:54 2009 CDT #
Sucka\'s Goin Down says:
"This is a good plan unless you're short these securities and equities. DOH!!!!!!!!!!!"
or a taxpayer
Parent Post
Sucka\'s Goin Down Sun Mar 22 19:49:46 2009 CDT #
wave of mutilation says:
Summer inferno
Greed pushes victim too far
Morai comes home
wave of mutilation Sun Mar 22 19:50:05 2009 CDT #
Tom Stone says:
CR put it succinctly.Toxic.
Tom Stone Sun Mar 22 19:50:47 2009 CDT #
dUCKdUCKgOOSE says:
100 billion? Hahahahahahaha.
dUCKdUCKgOOSE Sun Mar 22 19:54:12 2009 CDT #
PonziMCC says:
10+% interest payments i know your kidding Re,
but for those that don't get the riddle...there are'nt any payments being made. there cdo's of sub prime loans that have been/or are being held back for foreclosure.
PonziMCC Sun Mar 22 19:54:35 2009 CDT #
mp says:
Conjure says, "It's likely that Obama will be a one-term president."
"With all of these zombified banks, Geithner won't last until the end of Obama's term and populist sentiment is going to be unforgiving."
"Got gold?"
mp Sun Mar 22 19:54:51 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
"Got Gold?" Yup and guns and groceries too.
Parent Post
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:21:48 2009 CDT #
bernandoo says:
Of course buyers will be willing to buy at inflated prices. As long as the cash flow is greater than the cost of interest on the gov't loans, they're making profit. As soon as this spread goes negative, they hand the assets to the gov't and the taxpayer gets the shaft.
bernandoo Sun Mar 22 19:57:53 2009 CDT #
wally says:
This "plan" makes me gag.
wally Sun Mar 22 19:58:40 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
""This is a good plan unless you're short these securities and equities. DOH!!!!!!!!!!!"
or a taxpayer"
Yeah right, unless you're a taxpayer with a home, a 401k, a pension, a job dependent on consumer spending/financial markets/banking/construction, any assets in the stock market or RE, etc.
Oh boy, the people will sure be pissed....
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 19:59:16 2009 CDT #
NYCityBoy says:
This is a $1 trillion plan. That is a lot of money. If they blow this much ammo in one shot, what will they do next week to pump the stock market?
We know the market can't pump itself on its own. Last week was Pandit. Then it was Bernanke saying he was going to monetize debt. This week it is a $1 trillion abomination from that little golem named Geithner.
The lies to pump the market keep getting bigger and bigger. How can they keep topping themselves when they are already doing announcements that need to reach one trillion dollars?
NYCityBoy Sun Mar 22 20:01:39 2009 CDT #
EvilHenryPaulson says:
Nice to see my $4tn back of the envelope figure permeating
Still, there is deficient understanding of the whole situation. Even once you cure the bank balance sheets, you will miss the illness. The lack of credit imbued absolute demand, and prolonged high growth thereof will not return.
For that reason, the absence of illness will take this process through an additional stage.
re: last thread
lot of good comments there waxing and waning about SV et al. this comments section brings together more relevant perspectives than a hand picked panel
EvilHenryPaulson Sun Mar 22 20:01:43 2009 CDT #
danm says:
I don't understand why everyone is getting their undies tied in a knot over all these announced plans. At this point no medicine will work. This is a flu, and only time will heal... but of course your leaders can't sit and wait it out.
Either:
1. You write off the stuff, get huge deleveraging and the losers are 55+ because they were the ones with the inflated assets in the first place.
or
2. No write-offs. You just sweep the bad stuff under the rug, replace it with new crispy bills and bingo you get inflation. 55+ lose out again as the cost of living rises faster than the value of their assets (young people still can't buy the over-inflated houses unless their salaries go up).
danm Sun Mar 22 20:04:10 2009 CDT #
debtinator says:
This is like giving a new liver to a guy that that's going start getting drunk again every day.
debtinator Sun Mar 22 20:04:20 2009 CDT #
Bob the Builder says:
Actually its like giving a "healthy" person cancer in hopes of saving the terminally ill. Its time to Euthanize C, BAC, AIG, et al.
Parent Post
Bob the Builder Sun Mar 22 22:13:31 2009 CDT #
PonziMCC says:
not to be left out
GM bondholders want response on restructuring plan
diTech is eager to get back to giveaway's.
it's amazing how far those fin guys can stretch the profit on a geo metro
PonziMCC Sun Mar 22 20:06:11 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Will it work?" Maybe, but at what cost?
-------------------------------------------------------
Will it work to do what? Move us further from reality? Check.
But at what cost? I don't think the "cost" at this point can get any higher so keep piling on boyz.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:06:27 2009 CDT #
Black Star Ranch says:
....and THIS is the PLAN?
We should have known - if there had been a REAL solution available, it would have made itself visible before now.
NOW HEAR THIS: THE END IS NOW NEARER.
Black Star Ranch Sun Mar 22 20:06:42 2009 CDT #
scone says:
Anonymous says:
Today, 5:31:20 PM
“scone says:
“Several trillion good reasons to get out of this country...
Hope you go to Afghanistan or Iraq !
.
The anonymous drive-by trolls are jealous! Score one for me. :-P
scone Sun Mar 22 20:06:48 2009 CDT #
The Great Tupuli says:
Question: What would have happened if Obama put some notion of "fairness" first and "rate of recovery" second? My read is that Americans are generally willing to bear great costs if the costs are borne uniformly (e.g. WWII).
Instead of spending vast sums to juke the stats, why not:
- Use $1T/year to fund non-controversial, long-term infrastructure projects to keep unemployment in single digits.
- Let houses fall to 2x-3x household incomes
- Offer a slightly more comprehensive social safety net
Could anyone claim that such a policy would have "delayed recovery"? What is gained by trying to sustain asset prices?
The Great Tupuli Sun Mar 22 20:06:59 2009 CDT #
Money Man says:
That plan goes against the "SYSTEM". You now the one where Bankers and Politicians WIN and taxpayers loose. :-$
Parent Post
Money Man Sun Mar 22 20:11:35 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
I think we can rest assured that the trillions would be ultimately be paid for by the Chinese through the purchase of more US treasuries, failing which Bernanke would make sure more money is printed to buy treasuries needed and throwing the US$ to the wolves. Either way, the Chinese would pay. Great plan, and god bless the Chinese 8-)
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:08:44 2009 CDT #
Sucka\'s Goin Down says:
"Yeah right, unless you're a taxpayer with a home, a 401k, a pension, a job dependent on consumer spending/financial markets/banking/construction, any assets in the stock market or RE, etc.
Oh boy, the people will sure be pissed...."
You think this plan will turn the economy around?
I'll take the other side of that bet all day long.
Sucka\'s Goin Down Sun Mar 22 20:09:00 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
I think at this point a national screening of Woody Allen's "Bananas" is in order. Viewed not as a comedy farce but as a glimpse of our future. Fielding Flemish anyone?
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:09:20 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
I think at this point a national screening of Woody Allen's "Bananas" is in order. Viewed not as a comedy farce but as a glimpse of our future. Fielding Flemish anyone?
Followed by 'Sleeper'... and if they give me an Orb & an Orgasmitron... they can sell all the toxics they want... I won't care.
Parent Post
dryfly Sun Mar 22 20:41:30 2009 CDT #
Money Man says:
YEAH!!!!!! Market set to make the final push to 5,000! Booooo Yaaaahhhhhhh!
Money Man Sun Mar 22 20:10:00 2009 CDT #
Yalt says:
Yeah right, unless you're a taxpayer with a home, a 401k, a pension, a job dependent on consumer spending/financial markets/banking/construction, any assets in the stock market or RE, etc.
Yes, if all goes well we will be taking from the population according to their taxable income and redistributing that wealth proportionally to each person's assets. Redistribution from the productive to the rentier.
Yalt Sun Mar 22 20:10:36 2009 CDT #
Patrick Henry says:
No nationalization, No bailouts...just bankruptcy.
We don't need Citi, Bank of America or Wells Fargo. The banks that were operating under good business practices will be fine and will thrive.
Patrick Henry Sun Mar 22 20:11:23 2009 CDT #
NYCityBoy says:
We went for a little walk today. We walked up 9th Avenue to Midtown. It had been a while since I had gone over that far in Midtown. I'm usually on the East Side. I had forgotten just how many towers they were putting up over there. The amount of building around 42nd Street is astounding. There is nothing like The Port Authority Bus Terminal to make me want to buy a luxury condo.
The madness follows itself to the 50s. It's also in Brooklyn and Queens. It's also across the river in Jersey. How many million dollar condos can you have in Hoboken?
What is my point? I can't seem to remember. Oh, that's right. The point of all of this is to put a floor under housing. Of course the oncoming inventory glut is still obvious. The empty storefronts are everywhere. Rents are plummeting. This should tell us where prices are heading in Manhattan. This is right under the noses of Little Timmay from Maiden Lane. But yet they keep shoveling out their bullsh-t, hoping that our eyes are lying to us. The only thing lying to me is The Masters of the Universe. My eyes are just fine.
NYCityBoy Sun Mar 22 20:11:33 2009 CDT #
CrispyBait says:
Use $1T/year to fund non-controversial, long-term infrastructure projects to keep unemployment in single digits
uhhhh....we don't need no more stinkin infrastructure. unless it's drill pipes for deep-water.
how bout instead a $1trillion dollar clean up plan.
every delapidated structure in the country scraped and recycled. beutification projects. etc,etc
CrispyBait Sun Mar 22 20:11:39 2009 CDT #
sm_landlord says:
How are we going to grow up to be like Europe if we don't keep the old, dilapidated rockpiles and symbols of decay laying around the countryside?
/snark
Parent Post
sm_landlord Sun Mar 22 20:43:06 2009 CDT #
Yalt says:
What is gained by trying to sustain asset prices?
The gratitude of those who own most of the assets. Who do you think pays for political campaigns, the taxpayer?
Yalt Sun Mar 22 20:12:49 2009 CDT #
Lawyerliz says:
Nobody I know wants to borrow, except to buy a house at half off or better. Nobody but FHA will loan to them.
Nobody I know can afford to borrow anyway.
Lots of people I know who used to have money and a good credit score don't anymore.
People are just not spending money the way they usta. This is not going to change for a long time.
Lawyerliz Sun Mar 22 20:14:50 2009 CDT #
danm says:
What is gained by trying to sustain asset prices?
----
When you create inflation, the winners are the frist ones to get the money... who do you that has been?
danm Sun Mar 22 20:15:01 2009 CDT #
daReada says:
This plan is very wrong. As others have already indicated here banks holding the toxic assets have every incentive to participate on this auction and make high bids for their own assets.
daReada Sun Mar 22 20:15:28 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
HOLLY MAKREL!!
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:16:26 2009 CDT #
timetopay says:
I think the sentiment here is generally to avoid any more taxpayer's money being thrown down a hole -- even if the result were the collapse of the world's monetary system -- "let 'em fail" -- it would be exciting and exhilirating to see the END (finally) of Wall Street, banksters and the ultra-rich -- unfortunately BO is really not a radical and would miss all the $$$ from the corporate/Republican pigs that will ALWAYS run things --
timetopay Sun Mar 22 20:16:39 2009 CDT #
Blackhalo says:
The problem with the TPTB allowing failure, is that in the bubblenomics world they are trying to resurrect, financial institutions are ~30% of the "economy" (up from 3% 30 yrs ago) and the largest contributors to political campaigns. It takes big bucks to get elected these days and that barrier to entry keeps non-bank approved candidates from coming to power.
If these big spenders go down in BK and get replaced by the boring and solvent CUs and honest bankers. TPTB might just get replaced by someone who represents the voters, and not corporate USA.
Parent Post
Blackhalo Sun Mar 22 20:40:54 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
I can't believe I am saying that but the only hope I got is that the Repubs will have enough spine to stop this thievery.
From NY Times
“I think we are absolutely taking the right policies,” said Ms. Romer, during an appearance on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “I have every expectation, as do private forecasters, that we will bottom out this year and actually be growing again by next year.”
Asked on “Fox News Sunday” how confident she is that a year from now Obama administration policies would be succeeding, she replied: “Incredibly confident.”
“We absolutely think that they are going to do the job for the American economy,” Ms. Romer added.
That sunny outlook was not shared by Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the senior Republican on the Senate Budget Committee, and Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama, top Republican on the Senate Banking Committee. They cited new estimates released Friday by the Congressional Budget Office that calculated that the White House’s tax and spending plans would create deficits totaling $2.3 trillion more than the president’s budget projected for the next decade.
“The practical implications of this is bankruptcy for the United States,” said Mr. Gregg, who also appeared on CNN. “There’s no other way around it. If we maintain the proposals which are in this budget over the 10-year period the budget covers, this country will go bankrupt. People will not buy our debt; our dollar will become devalued.
“It is a very severe situation. And I find it almost unconscionable that this administration is essentially saying, well, we’re just going to blithely go along on this course of action after they’re getting these numbers.”
Mr. Shelby, speaking on “Fox News Sunday,” said Mr. Obama was going to have to scale back his budget in light of the new estimates: “He’s going to have to. We’re on a — on the fast road to financial destruction, and I see a 20 billion — a $20 trillion deficit in the few years to come,” he said.
Maine Senator Susan Collins, one of the few Republicans to support President Obama’s stimulus package, said she could not back his budget plan, which she said would bring debt to an unprecedented level. “It poses a threat to the basic health of our economy,” she said on ABC’s “This Week.”
Ms. Romer challenged the estimates, calling the figures unrealistically pessimistic.
MrM Sun Mar 22 20:16:41 2009 CDT #
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) says:
Well, I 'hope' that there are responsible adults in the House and Senate that put an end to this stupid plan (taxpayers putting up to 97% of the money, with the schmucks/shysters/shylocks getting much more than 3% of the profits).
Man, Obama better wake up soon or he is going to have riots on his hands. What a dolt to think that folks have any appetite for more trillion dollar bailouts.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090322/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bank_rescue_26
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) Sun Mar 22 20:16:50 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Geithner to Announce "Toxic" Plan before 9:30 AM ET
--------------------------------------------------------
Reads like a threat to me. Timmy, maybe what you're about to spew will once again not mean what you think it's going to mean to the markets. That would be poetic justice and a sign of "hope" to me because the sooner this lasp gasp at outright fraud blows up the better. This stupid ass fraudulent plan and Bernanke's "quantitive easing" nuclear option plan. A race to the bottom has started in earnest. I think quantitive easing blows up on us first but the market could do Timmy's plan in real fast tommorow morning.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:17:12 2009 CDT #
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) says:
CR, please do restart your trillion dollar debt counter. I know that you found it entertaining during the last part of Bush's reign. We libertarians and fiscal conservatives will find it entertaining during this first and last term of Obama's reign.
Comrade-Dope jg (jg) Sun Mar 22 20:21:09 2009 CDT #
Basel Too says:
Well, I 'hope' that there are responsible adults in the House and Senate that put an end to this stupid plan (taxpayers putting up to 97% of the money, with the schmucks/shysters/shylocks getting much more than 3% of the profits).
This is basically the second tranche of TARP. Congress already had 2 shots to stop this, but acquiesced both times. Perhaps they shouldn't give $750B with very little strings attached.
Basel Too Sun Mar 22 20:21:20 2009 CDT #
Blackhalo says:
"This is basically the second tranche of TARP. Congress already had 2 shots to stop this, but acquiesced both times. Perhaps they shouldn't give $750B with very little strings attached."
I can't help thinking how much more stimulative it would have been to just cut checks to every U.S. citizen instead. Even if they just put it in the bank, or make a mortgage payment or buy a new car or computer, or iPhone, it would have done more to get the economy chugging than throwing it down the derivative black hole.
Parent Post
Blackhalo Sun Mar 22 20:31:42 2009 CDT #
Show me the money says:
Please if the cut a check to all citizens how do I get my bonus?
The bankster
Parent Post
Show me the money Sun Mar 22 20:34:57 2009 CDT #
Yalt says:
I can't help thinking how much more stimulative it would have been to just cut checks to every U.S. citizen instead.
How would the banks have made money on that?
Parent Post
Yalt Sun Mar 22 20:37:30 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
I can't help thinking how much more stimulative it would have been to just cut checks to every U.S. citizen instead.
The usual logic says that you need to restart the demand to get the economy out of recession. Checks will be saved, not spent, and hence they are not productive.
However, this is a debt-driven recession. Helping households rebuild their balance sheets is a good thing. It will also help the financial segment (consumer finance companies at any rate). So it may not be a bad idea, actually :-)
Parent Post
MrM Sun Mar 22 20:42:25 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
Geithner to Announce "Toxic" Plan before 9:30 AM ET
I'm surprised they announced they are going to announce something. The short squeeze would have worked better if no one knew this was coming and the announced it 5 minutes before the bell.
Guest Sun Mar 22 20:22:10 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
suckers going down -
You must have missed it, the economy already went down. If you bought the many puts on financials and RE that I sold a few weeks ago after 2 years in the position then you are on the other side of that bet - so
good luck - I suspect you'll need it. I've decided to take my winnings, put it in short term USTs and sit on the sidelines while I watch the perma-bears and perma-bulls lose all of their remaining money over the next 6-12 months.
Silly lemmings.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:22:51 2009 CDT #
Tailspin says:
Nothing but a shell game. Yes/No?
Tailspin Sun Mar 22 20:23:27 2009 CDT #
Show me the money says:
My guess here is that bank shares will rally. Hum I wonder didn't JPMorgan et al executives got a bunch of stock and options recently...
Of course when the public finds out how many more billions these execs have made on their stock and options Obama will be on TV telling how mad and angry he is...
Show me the money Sun Mar 22 20:24:43 2009 CDT #
The Great Tupuli says:
The gratitude of those who own most of the assets. Who do you think pays for political campaigns, the taxpayer?
Well, in the case of Obama it was a large number of individual donors. That's the part I don't understand: If you're Obama why sell out on Day 1?
I'm an incredibly cynical person, but I must admit a little surprise here. I mean, I really miss the days when $2B no-bid contracts were scandalous.
The Great Tupuli Sun Mar 22 20:24:46 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
If you're a hedgie or PE firm and you participate and later it's clearly shown to be a scam/fraud you're on the list of the proscribed. Count on it and be afraid. Conjure has this one nailed as usual.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:24:58 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Prepare for the market to take a nose dive.
Unfortunately, the actions of the Obama administration are reminiscent of a crash dummie discovering the windshield. :(
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:28:36 2009 CDT #
Sucka\'s Goin Down says:
I didn't miss anything anon. You suggested that this plan would increase asset prices and employment.
How is this BS plan going to do that?
Sucka\'s Goin Down Sun Mar 22 20:28:38 2009 CDT #
poic.v20 says:
"I didn't miss anything anon. You suggested that this plan would increase asset prices and employment.
How is this BS plan going to do that?"
Well if we go Weimar then asset prices go up in value and we get to hire millions of people to shovel cash into wheel-barrows.
poic.v20 Sun Mar 22 20:30:49 2009 CDT #
NYCityBoy says:
"Well if we go Weimar then asset prices go up in value and we get to hire millions of people to shovel cash into wheel-barrows."
Most people don't even remember what cash is any more. I was behind a snotty looking girl at Gourmet Garage this morning. She was probably in her early 20s. Any New Yorker knows the look. She was buying a bottle of water. Out came the plastic. Sure, it might have been a debit card but this country is filled with people that don't even know what cash is. I bet most don't know what a wheel-barrow is either.
This nation is drowning in debt/credit. The question has been raised a million times. To get to Weimar some cash has to get to the people. How does that happen? Especially with unemployment soaring.
Parent Post
NYCityBoy Sun Mar 22 20:35:36 2009 CDT #
nova says:
Welcome to the CR inspired future.
excerpt:
“Maria knows where to find food. A lot of food. Go on Maria. Tell him.” Then she spoke sharply to her in Spanish. Maria began hesitantly, but once she got rolling, it got interesting. She would stop only to ask Rosa to translate a word or phrase for her. Pared of all the information I didn’t really need to know, as Maria would go off on tangents about the personal habits or lifestyle of her former employer. What came of it was interesting. Maria had worked for awhile as a housekeeper for a wealthy family in Leesburg. They were “horse people” which, besides the cultural and status baggage, meant they had horses. A lot of horses. The estate was a horse farm. They also boarded other people’s horses which was something they had never done, apparently the last couple years had been less than kind to the family fortune.
for more: http://afterthecrash.net
nova Sun Mar 22 20:31:29 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Young Japanese retail investors are turning to gold purchasing plans at an unprecedented rate as they seek to protect their finances amid a deepening recession, an official at the nation’s largest bullion retailer said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aGNN6Ho1NIbc
I think they have seen this movie before and they didn't like it the first time around. =-X
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:33:36 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
The market perception of the QE power of the Fed - Treasury yields
10 year Mar 02: 2.91 , Mar 20: 2.65
30 year Mar 02: 3.64 , Mar 20: 3.65
With the trade collapsing and foreign central banks moving to the short end part of the yield curve, the Fed's credibility does not look that strong.
And the plans put forward by Treasury are not helping.
MrM Sun Mar 22 20:34:08 2009 CDT #
ArtVandelay22 says:
OT - the ultimate "hoocouldanode":
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/mar/22/1n22trust00027-empty-promises/?uniontrib
You mean the firm I chose to my mortgage loan mod - the one named "Apocalypse Trust" - isn't on the up-and-up?
ArtVandelay22 Sun Mar 22 20:34:12 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
Then we have worse things to worry about than government losses on TARP-program money--for we are then in a world in which the only things that have value are bottled water, sewing needles, and ammunition
water [check]
sewing needles [check]
ammunition [check]
So what is he worrying about anyway?
dryfly Sun Mar 22 20:34:39 2009 CDT #
1 currency [yogi] says:
Fielding Mellish.
1 currency [yogi] Sun Mar 22 20:39:53 2009 CDT #
sneeringnihilist says:
picked up this link from the oil drum. since some of ya'll are talking about gold...
bread for gold
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM
sneeringnihilist Sun Mar 22 20:40:10 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
New kickback scheme: Private investor buys overpriced junk assets from bank while Treasury pays 85% of the bill.
Bank pays investor back via some shady channels.
And "Congress will provide more money to solve the problem once and for all." Priceless.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:41:27 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
sucka -
This BS plan is inflationary (they're going to pay more than the marks on these assets - ah, so asset prices will increase...duh) and will prop up the balance sheets of pretty much every large financial institution in the US markets which will lead to more credit formation (which leads to guess what, asset inflation and economic stimulus). The world is addicted to credit and no matter how much all of us savers hate that it isnt going to change - and all of these governments are going to do all they can to get credit going as evidenced by this plan and others. So I would suggest you come to realization that you cant fight City Hall and the fact the majority of our population (and the world) is addicted to credit. So the government is going to do all it can to keep a majority of its constituents happy and with a fiat currency and global support (since everyone is in the same boat) they will ultimately succeed. So betting against it is ultimately a loser and those who get greedy on the short side will get buried just like the greedy bulls.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:43:31 2009 CDT #
Basel Too says:
New kickback scheme: Private investor buys overpriced junk assets from bank while Treasury pays 85% of the bill.
Shoot, it just occurred to me that PIC is basically Maiden Lane LLC on steroids. How's that program going?
Basel Too Sun Mar 22 20:45:06 2009 CDT #
evelyn woods graduate says:
If this is such a good deal, let's have the asset managers at Calpers and other state pension funds do it.
They need the juiced returns and having been burnt recently by wall street would certainly relish a chance to get even.
evelyn woods graduate Sun Mar 22 20:45:22 2009 CDT #
MrM says:
I typed in a good old smiley, this kind : - )
And the stoopid js-kit converted it into this monstrosity :-)
Boy I miss Haloscan's preview function
MrM Sun Mar 22 20:47:42 2009 CDT #
vozworth says:
"Oh well, what's a few trillion between friends?"
Hopefully a Brazillion. 8-)
vozworth Sun Mar 22 20:48:53 2009 CDT #
1 currency [yogi] says:
nycboy a friend just got approved to build condos in Flushing. Told him he was nuts.
As for plastic, how do you know she wasn't using a debit card? The card transactions at my local Food Emporium are now faster than paper and coin, and $5 muggings are not the daily story of my nyc youth.
1 currency [yogi] Sun Mar 22 20:53:52 2009 CDT #
sm_landlord says:
I guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow for the details, I don't see enough to tell how they think this might work. Surely there is more to come in the AM from Captain TurboTax.
Is the idea to float the difference between what the Banks want for the toxic waste and what the alleged buyers will pay? Deos anyone have an idea how wide that gap is? 10, 20, 50% of mark-to-miracle value?
sm_landlord Sun Mar 22 20:55:47 2009 CDT #
Topher says:
Poic.v20m writes
“You and I will be purchasing these assets. A few "private" parties will auction to set prices and the rest will be bought by you and I through pension funds, 401k plans etc.
Kashkari already stated a month ago that he expected the majority of the private capital for this program to come from pension plans.”
scone says:
“Several trillion good reasons to get out of this country...
Hope you go to Afghanistan or Iraq !”
That’s a smart-ass remark. I’m not going to bail out our f**ked up government, wall Street or dead beats!
I can tell you for a fact that I will not be buying any of this crap in any 401K.
Stopped all contributions to our 401K, Opened IRA last year and funded for 2008&2009 (up 30%).
I invest all our money. Sold all of our T.Rowe Price Funds and moved the money to their Trade link account (01-08-2008 up 14%) where I have full control.
My wife is Japanese and we’ve been married for 20 years. We chose for her not to become a US citizen for the reason if we decided to leave the US we can go and live in Japan. That decision is weighing heavily on our minds these days. Our 12-year-old daughter has an American and Japanese passport. She has till she’s 21 to decide what one she chooses to keep. We still save almost 40% of our combined earnings after tax. We have been moving money to Accounts in Japan under my wife and daughter’s names. Some in cash and other in stocks. It’s not easy to try and figure out how not to get our hard earned savings taken from us to bail out, our out of control government. The 401k money comes due this Thursday and I’m having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with it to get a decent return. The reason we stopped contributing to the 401K is that they only allow future contributions to go into a Roth IRA that we have no control over. We have to pick one of their funds. I had to fight like hell in January of 2008 to get the money under my control. I was looking at some corporate AAA & AA corporate bonds for 6-12 months. Any suggestions?
>:o
Topher Sun Mar 22 20:56:51 2009 CDT #
mp says:
Zandi- "But if the plan works well enough, I think Congress will provide more money to solve the problem once and for all."
That will be "must see TV."
mp Sun Mar 22 20:57:12 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
So this is how Obama pays back his real support. A quick hit for the hedge funds while the titantic continues to sink, which, hey, could not be helped regardless. Hey this actually kind of sounds like a, drum roll please, PONZI SCHEME. Is Bernie still doing consultant work then?
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 20:58:38 2009 CDT #
Marlin says:
Do you know where my son, Nemo is?
Marlin Sun Mar 22 20:59:30 2009 CDT #
dryfly says:
Do you know where my son, Nemo is?
Nemo? So sorry to be the one to tell you...
Parent Post
dryfly Sun Mar 22 21:02:59 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
Why in the holy hell are the American sheeple allowing our government to do this to us?
Michael Sun Mar 22 21:01:07 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
It looks like TPTB are going to push through the Tarp plan with the American tax payer holding the bag for another 700b in loses. As much as I would like to see the new program not be implemented, I suppose the American tax payer deserves to be scalped again for being such good born-n-bred dopes. Another reason I don't mind seeing the TARP revised plan pass is because it will hasted America's economic destruction that much more quickly. Let the bastards keep looting I say, I don't care if nobody else does, but I'm with you if you want to storm the capitol.
Parent Post
Michael Sun Mar 22 21:08:45 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
unless the dog eats his homework again
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 21:02:28 2009 CDT #
Guest says:
Why in the holy hell are the American sheeple allowing our government to do this to us?
Baa-a-a-a-a?
Guest Sun Mar 22 21:02:50 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Brad DeLong = shill
Sept 22 2008 "I think the federal government is much more likely than not to make money off of AIG (AIG), Fannie (FNM), Freddie (FRE), and whatever else it winds up buying."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/96647-fed-is-likely-to-make-money-from-its-bank-buyouts
and from his biography
"J. Bradford DeLong is a professor of economics at the University of California at Berkeley, chair of its political economy major, a research associate of the National Bureau of Economic Research, a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, and was in the Clinton administration a deputy assistant secretary of the U.S. Treasury....
He is also a member of The Ancient and Hermetic Order of the Shill"
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/about_brad_delong.html
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 21:06:00 2009 CDT #
CRbot says:
New Thread: Geithner to hold "Toxic" briefing at 8:45 AM
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/03/geithner-to-hold-toxic-briefing-at-845.html ( 3 comments )
I also post comments to an irc channel as they appear on haloscan. Click for a web irc interface: http://realize.org/cr (Or join the irc server directly: irc.realize.org:9996 #calculatedrisk)
CRbot would now like to sing a little song for all his fans, and it goes something like this:
Benny... Benny... give me your answer... do.
I'm.. half CRAZY... all for the love... of you.
It won't be a ... stylish marriage.
I can't... AFFORD... ANYTHING TO EAT... MUCH LESS A FRACKIN CARRIAGE!!!
But you'll look sweet... --BOT SO HUNGRY!-- upon the seat...
Of a HOOPAJOOPS built for two... families.
I'm sorry Ben, I can't let you do that...
Rally mode + Printing Press == does not compute... does not-- com--- com... puttttrrrrhgh.
--Your systemic-failure-crashing bot
CRbot: Call me HAL.
CRbot Sun Mar 22 21:08:02 2009 CDT #
Michael says:
Wall Street is gang-raping the American Dream...., and we like it.
"Rollingstone.com
The Big Takeover
The global economic crisis isn't about money - it's about power. How Wall Street insiders are using the bailout to stage a revolution
MATT TAIBBI
Mar 19, 2009 12:49 PM
It's over -- we're officially, royally fucked. no empire can survive being rendered a permanent laughingstock, which is what happened as of a few weeks ago, when the buffoons who have been running things in this country finally went one step too far. It happened when Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was forced to admit that he was once again going to have to stuff billions of taxpayer dollars into a dying insurance giant called AIG, itself a profound symbol of our national decline -- a corporation that got rich insuring the concrete and steel of American industry in the country's heyday, only to destroy itself chasing phantom fortunes at the Wall Street card tables, like a dissolute nobleman gambling away the family estate in the waning days of the British Empire.
The latest bailout came as AIG admitted to having just posted the largest quarterly loss in American corporate history -- some $61.7 billion. In the final three months of last year, the company lost more than $27 million every hour. That's $465,000 a minute, a yearly income for a median American household every six seconds, roughly $7,750 a second. And all this happened at the end of eight straight years that America devoted to frantically chasing the shadow of a terrorist threat to no avail, eight years spent stopping every citizen at every airport to search every purse, bag, crotch and briefcase for juice boxes and explosive tubes of toothpaste. Yet in the end, our government had no mechanism for searching the balance sheets of companies that held life-or-death power over our society and was unable to spot holes in the national economy the size of Libya (whose entire GDP last year was smaller than AIG's 2008 losses).
So it's time to admit it: We're fools, protagonists in a kind of gruesome comedy about the marriage of greed and stupidity. And the worst part about it is that we're still in denial -- we still think this is some kind of unfortunate accident, not something that was created by the group of psychopaths on Wall Street whom we allowed to gang-rape the American Dream."
...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover
Michael Sun Mar 22 21:10:25 2009 CDT #
FFDIC says:
The cash flush FDIC is supportive of this plan so it must be correct and the best deal for Americans and foreigners. Lets move on to the next topic. Thanks.
FFDIC Sun Mar 22 21:13:56 2009 CDT #
Being Goode says:
Any of you prognosticators care to speculate as to who was on the grassy knoll? You guys are unbelievable.
No... really...................
Being Goode Sun Mar 22 21:19:37 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
scone says:
The anonymous drive-by trolls are jealous! Score one for me.
Jealous ? Jealous ?
Ha, why should I be jealous ?
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 21:20:03 2009 CDT #
Maximus says:
I normally don't agree with Krugman, but he's nailed it this time--we can only hope Congress shows ANY trace of integrity and kills this plan, because Obama has clearly shown he's now sold his soul to the powers that be....
If this goes through, taxpayers will lose pretty much whatever amount is contributed by the treasury (what is a non-recourse loan basically it's a gift....)
Read today's analysis by Tyler Durden of Zero Hedge on this weeks BEST list at my blog link below. If you don't agree after reading that that this is truly a "let them eat cake" moment in our history, then you are truly not paying attention....
Maximus
http://4best4worst.wordpress.com/
Maximus Sun Mar 22 21:26:06 2009 CDT #
bearly says:
Obama said he is crafting a future for America that is absent of bubbles and values hard work and creativity. My read is why do we need Steel Miils, CAT, GM, BA, INTC... anything, because all the resources of the country will go straight into financial institutions tp make financial criminals more rich than they ever dreamed. Meet the new boss.
GS - "All your $$$$ are belong to us! "
bearly Sun Mar 22 21:28:14 2009 CDT #
Anonymous says:
Does Congress have to approve this plan? If we think this is bad for the market, which is probably the eventual outcome, how to we reconcile with rapidly rising bank stocks. One or the other will win out and so far, the banks have it.
Anonymous Sun Mar 22 21:31:38 2009 CDT #
Wagster says:
Bob in MA is right that the private participants would not be likely to pay more than they judge the paper to be worth. I thought the protected down side and the uncapped upside would affect the considerations, but I ran some numbers -- it's counterintuitive but actually, no, it barely shifts the calculus.
CR is right that if this is right then the plan will probably be lightly participated on the seller side. The only way this would make a big dent is if the only thing that has been preventing private investment is lack of financing -- that's what the administration claims. Maybe they're right... although I doubt it.
Still... I think it's worth a shot. If it fails, it will probably fail in a way that won't cost us much, and it'll buttress the case for more energetic action.
Wagster Sun Mar 22 22:02:47 2009 CDT #
OldSouth says:
Maine Senator Susan Collins, one of the few Republicans to support President Obama’s stimulus package, said she could not back his budget plan, which she said would bring debt to an unprecedented level. “It poses a threat to the basic health of our economy,” she said on ABC’s “This Week.”
Well, having served as Obama's principal enabler in his insane 'bailout' package, she should not profess shock that he would come back for more.
She did not betray her party.
She did betray her country.
OldSouth Sun Mar 22 22:31:15 2009 CDT #
RanMan says:
the answer to stopping this madness with the banks is for everyone in the US to remove their deposits with them to smaller local community banks! This means all checking accounts, savings accounts, ets. All Cash gets removed and placed in banks that are in good shape. samll community banks. That would be about a trillion dollars sucked out of the big boys! it would also send a confidence statement. Pass the word!
RanMan Mon Mar 23 05:43:32 2009 CDT #
END