Comments for "Reuters reports GM in Intense Bankruptcy Preparations"

wally wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:13am.

Those not yet in tents will soon be.

Hysterian wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:14am.

Welcome to the Greater Depression.

some investor guy (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:16am.

I wish I could time the market. I would schedule job interviews on up days.

That's Ballgame Comrades wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:17am.

ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) - Don't discuss the economy with customers.
That's the recommendation from the head of the city's Casino Association, who warns that talking with gamblers about how bad the economy is can be a losing proposition.
Joe Corbo, president of the Casino Association of New Jersey, said Atlantic City casinos have been hit hard, just as other businesses have nationwide. In a monthly column in Casino Connection, Corbo says the last thing gamblers need to be reminded of is the tanking stock market or how much money they have lost recently.
Making small talk with customers about the current national concern may seem like a good way to bond with them, but "not really," Corbo says.
"Our customers come here to escape. They don't want to be reminded of declining 401(k) balances or investment portfolios," he wrote. "If we engage them in discussion about the economy - or even worse, our personal circumstances - we're reminding them of the very things they're trying to forget."
Instead, Corbo recommends politely changing the subject and suggesting customers forget their problems and enjoy themselves.
In a brief interview, Corbo said Tuesday that no threats or punishment will be handed out to casino workers who do discuss the economy with customers. He said customers come to Atlantic City to escape for awhile, and no-economy-talk is one way casinos can help them do that.
Corbo says in the column the approach is part of a push for better customer service that city casinos can provide to differentiate themselves from out-of-state slots parlors in Pennsylvania and New York that have been hurting the resort's bottom line.
Last year, Atlantic City's 11 casinos saw their gross operating profits plunge by nearly 25 percent, and the resort is in its third straight year of declining revenues.
Barbara Basile, a dealer at Bally's Atlantic City, said Corbo's suggestion was good in theory, but many gamblers want to talk with dealers about the economy and their personal financial woes.
"It's like the saying that the bartender is the psychologist on the street - our jobs are the same way," she said. "They talk about the economy all the time. It's a way for them to get the pressure out. They're not just cutting loose with their wallets; they're cutting loose with their hearts."
Basile said the best form of customer service is listening to what the customer wants to talk about, as long as it isn't bothering anyone else at the table.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:19am.

This is good news...lets get this behind us and move forward. BK is a useful tool that will make GM stronger....for Chrysler this is probably the end, they are a shitty company with nothing of value

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

MaryAnn wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:19am.

Goverment job, only security in town.

montas ankle (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:21am.

C&C

+1

Am I the only one who feels that becoming a corporate bondholder in anyhing other than a large financial institution is a monumental mistake?

after all, Gm can go bankrupt, but Citi and BofA are backed by the full faith and credit of the USA

Prestidigitationista wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:22am.

Miller: The life of a repo man is always intense.

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:22am.

until doing a google "street view" of downtown detroit, i didn't realize how freaking bizarre the GM building looks with the rest of the "city" as a backdrop. kept thinking ozymandias.

SandyStructures AutoGroup wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:24am.

I call BS...

GM has done Nothing "intense" since WWII

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:24am.

Naples holds its own version of Boston Tea Party
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/apr/05/naples-holds-its-own-version-...

"Regardless of their personal motivations, outrage was the unifying factor as hundreds of Southwest Florida residents gathered with signs and tea bags, chanting slogans like "Vote 'em all out!" After an hour of stump speeches, petition signing and a break to vote for the best signs, the people gathered at Fleischmann Park in Naples took their tea bags and dumped them into a small pool of water poured just for that purpose."

That's me at the Naples Tea Party with a bull horn doing some rabble rousing.
http://www.naplesnews.com/photos/galleries/2009/apr/05/naples-holds-its-...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Shnaps (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:25am.

Chrysler this is probably the end, they are a shitty company with nothing of value

well, take way Jeep and then, yes.

Prestidigitationista wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:25am.

So we end up with boatloads of blackjack dealers in Atlantic City that only know how to stack chips by color and can only count to 26?

You reap what you so fall to the level of a dumb beast, America.

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:26am.

I'm currently in intense preparations with my lower intestine. The outcome should be similar to GM.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:27am.

That's Ballgame Comrades wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:17am.
ATLANTIC CITY, N.J. (AP) - Don't discuss the economy with customers.
That's the recommendation from the head of the city's Casino Association,

Immelt is the head of AC's Casino assoc. and CNBC?

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:28am.

Here's an idea...GM can split into two entities...

One that takes it's most successful models and continues the lines with strategic emphasis on improving the long term needs of the US fleet (efficiency, emmissions, etc.).
The rest of the plants can be converted into assembly lines for solar panels.

That I wouldn't mind supporting with some of my tax dollars.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:28am.

I don't think GM has 52 days. The burn rate and asset depreciation don't give them April never mind all of May.

NASCAR will need a bailout now too.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:28am.

Will all you tea bag homos just get yourself to the Castro or Chelsea? I mean starting a movement based on some douchebag's rant on a crappy basic cable channel? That's just sad.

Prestidigitationista wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:31am.

Now the powers that used to be want to hang the short sellers by the short & curlies....

What's that curious smell that reeks of desperation?

Nemo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:31am.

I wonder if the preparations in the CDS market are even more intense.

- Nemo

mal wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:31am.

What freaks me out is the blocks and blocks of vacant lots. No houses, just grass. Not even trash on some of them.

Interesting Times (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:32am.

It's clearly all Fritz's and Obama fault that GM got into this mess in the first place !

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:33am.

Atlantic City is to vacation, as KFC is to chicken.

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:33am.

oh michael...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry...

you people were better off asleep dreaming your American dreams...

Shill wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:34am.

This is a coup of the Finance sector over are Constitutional Republic.

They have overthrow the rule of law in this country.
They did it to Russia, and Argentina now it has come full circle. We have been toppled, and Congress and the executive branch of our Government have colluded in selling us out.
The only thing that has ever separated us from the Thirld World was that we had laws which secured us from this theft, the ability of the finance sector to eliminate any possibility of loss, and to secure thier wealth at the expense of the national interests.

People this is treason! Obama administration, and every member of Congress who supports these bailouts are traitors, and have overthrow the Republic! This isnt their money! They dont have the right to take our tax dollars! and put it into their pockets. This is how Dictatorships are run.
We are a Dictatorship for all intensive purposes now. How does it feel to live in a Third World Dictatorship!

PS. DK seems to be the only HOMO yapping at the mouth...big tuff Keyboard dickhead.

some investor guy (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:34am.

Montas, I was astonished by S&P's statement that after Ford's buyback of almost $10 billion of its own bonds that they were considering downgrading them. Just Plain Stupid.
"Monday, Standard & Poor's Ratings Services announced the lowering of corporate credit and other ratings on Ford Motor Co. (F: News ), to selective default or 'SD' and certain issue ratings to 'D' as the automaker completed the tender offers for Ford debt. The rating agency has been considering the completion of tender offers to be distressed exchanges and tantamount to defaults under rating criteria."

What the hell are these people at S&P thinking? Do they downgrade firms when they refinance debt at a lower rate? I think many more firms should do this. If you have cash, or inexpensive credit available, and you can get rid of debt at less than 50 cents on the dollar, do it.

Fitch, on the other hand, said "Ford's (F.N) reduction of $9.9 billion in debt through the
repurchase of debt and the issuance of new equity is a positive step in
managing the company's liability structure, but does not currently impact the
company's rating or outlook, according to Fitch Ratings."

At least Fitch understands that buying back bonds at a serious discount is a good idea. Not sure where the S&P people got their econ education.

If it wouldn't become such a target for market manipulation, I would like to see people able to post comments on particular ratings at the agencies' websites.

Prestidigitationista wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:35am.

Invoking Godwin:

Adolf relied upon imaginary divisions to save his empire about this time 64 years ago, and we are relying upon imaginary division to do the very same for us.

Dead_Monkey_Bounce wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:36am.

Fritz? Yeah, Jerries in the streets, we need to get Tom and Joe to form up and hold the line.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:37am.

dk - LOL!!! Agre!!

Where were these tea baggers when BuchCO doubled the national debt?

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:38am.

some investor guy,
Ford should have been downgraded earlier, it was the hopes of a government bailout that delayed it. They have to get their lower ratings in before Ford goes bankrupt after all

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:38am.

Shill - yea I'm a homo, I love cock - yet I still don't go running around asking for a good tea bagging. Can't you see how you sound like a flaming queen? So the black man is going to steal your country now? I guess being afraid they would steal your woman/wallet/etc was getting old.

Interesting Times (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:39am.

Ratings agencies have served their purpose and should be taken to the woodshed.

What future use is there for them? Debt market is completely dislocated and no where near representative of true default rates.

Dead_Monkey_Bounce wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:41am.

I'm looking forward to the minute that we are allowed to start ignoring these bigots again.

killben wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:41am.

At least this story has an expiration date (another 52 days for GM, 22 days for Chrysler) .... Oh yeah unlike quarter-based handout programs!!

1 currency now -yogi (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:42am.

Just sold some 2011 F junk 5 minutes ago. Covers my Sept. puts.

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:43am.

Intensity in One City.

dafox (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:43am.

As GM goes, so goes the country?

Black Star Ranch (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:46am.

"We'll soon find out whether an organism the size of the United States can run an economy based on one family selling the contents of its garage to the family next door."

"We mortgaged our future and the future has now begun...............But the broad public won't accept the reality of this as long as the grandees of finance and their myrmidons appear to still enjoy the high life. They've got to be brought down hard, perhaps even disgraced and humiliated in the courts, and certainly parted from some of their fortunes" - http://www.kunstler.com/mags_diary25.html

............................Keeping THREE automobile manufacturers afloat thru the upcoming morass is sheer insanity and a total waste of precious depleted "resources".

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:46am.

Game of chicken with bondholders, perhaps?

some investor guy (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:46am.

I saw a posting from yesterday, think it was SMlandlord asking about Malibu. Received this in my email today, from local realtor and spindoctor. This guy is usually trying to pump how good an investment Malibu real estate is. Even some realtors are seeing the light.

"For MARCH the AVERAGE PRICE was $1.6 million with figures seriously impacted by fact that 5 out of the 7 sales registered were either short sales or REO's.

At present, there are a mind boggling 466 active SFR properties for sale in Malibu and Topanga and only 29 of them in escrow! [some inv guy note: a large portion of those will drop out of escrow]

LAND has virtually ground to a halt due to fact that last lender (Chase) evacuated the market for raw land acquisition lending, though CONSTRUCTION Loans are still available (there are some pretty specific requirements though, so check with me before plunging in). The good news here is that 100% of sellers in my own inventory (which is as large as anyone's) realize that they must cooperate in financing in order to make the sale. There are 264 active land listings with only 8 in escrow.

Leases continue to shine and keep many of your friendly neighborhood realtor's heads above water. 30 Leases done in March and amount of Lease dollar volume generated exceeds Condo and Land sales combined!"

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:48am.

Well at least I'm getting up off my ass and doing something.

Half the battle is just showing up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Black Star Ranch (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:51am.

OT: The Mrs. has been on the phone for over an hour filing for unemployment. 45-minutes so far on hold. Imagine the unemployment levels if people were actually able to get thru the process in a reasonable time.

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch

Kung Fu Panda wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:51am.

If GM goes bankrupt, all their suppliers that were on the edge or in bankruptcy get knocked over, I think. I suppose that EDS will take a hit, or whichever company took them over.

Interesting Times (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:52am.

BSR - it's easier to just get another job Wink

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:54am.

Micheal - what do you expect to accomplish...some rant about how you are a tea bagger and america is screwing you? LOL! Then what? You go home and hold your guns and gold and turn on Glen Beck for more advice?

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Rufus the doofus (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:55am.

GM is trying to survive by holding UAW members (the ones that haven't been bought-out or plant-closed) hostage. Any plan based on going into electric cars or whatever depends on the extent to which those hostages can be re-trained.

Also Rosebud Junk Co

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:56am.

I wrote in Ron Paul's Name. You know, there is a button on the voting machine you can push and write in any name you want.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

iceman (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:56am.

But I thought a GM bankruptcy was systemic risk?!?

----
"no one is pricing in low, mid teens unemployment in any of their assumptions." - Meredith Whitney

lawyerliz (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58am.

Yesterday EHP wanted to know about the Mass invalidation of 14k Fremont mtges, and I don't know anything except what the hub told me he read in AARP, which is not necessarily reliable. He doesn't understand this stuff and is saving me the article.

Off to get my flat tire fixed.

lawyerliz

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58am.

I have already set the wheels in motion for everything I want accomplished.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Bob Dobbs (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58am.

"............................Keeping THREE automobile manufacturers afloat thru the upcoming morass is sheer insanity and a total waste of precious depleted "resources"."

Even the Swedes are cutting Saab loose.

http://www.talesfromthecoast.blogspot.com

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58am.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aq_IeKJwjGjY&refer=home

ADM Plunges After Citigroup Says Agricultural Demand Is Slowing
Share | Email | Print | A A A

By Choy Leng Yeong

April 7 (Bloomberg) -- Archer Daniels Midland Co., the world's largest grain processor, declined in New York trading after a Citigroup Inc. analyst said weaker demand for agricultural products is hurting results in the oilseeds unit.

ADM fell $2.52, or 8.7 percent, to $26.21 at 11:03 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares earlier dropped as much as 10 percent, the biggest intraday decline since Jan. 14. Before today, the Decatur, Illinois-based company's shares slumped 32 percent in the past 12 months.

Corn and soybean prices fell from records last year on concern that the recession would reduce consumption. The volume of soybeans processed into vegetable oil and animal feed in February declined 7.4 percent from a year earlier as demand slid, the National Oilseed Processors Association said March 16.

"Slowing agricultural demand and overcapacity are negatively impacting volumes and margins in ADM's oilseeds and agricultural-services businesses," David Driscoll, a Citigroup analyst, said in a report today.

Borocco Mama wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:58am.

What will all the laid-off, ex-union autoworkers do? Sell real-estate? Prostitution? Drug Dealing? Open a Nail Salon?

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:00am.

Macaca Mama - Go to Craigslist.org - search in services for "need money" or "laid off" or "broke"...

That's what people are doing.

MEL wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:01am.

Has anyone figured out how many jobs could be lost--directly and indirectly-- if both companies go out of business?

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:01am.

Yet, even if we think in that sort of outdated terminology, First, Second and Third World, and most Americans do, then America is a Second World nation. We have no universal free health care (don't kid yourself about the plan under way), no guarantee of anything really, except competitive struggle with one another for work and money and career status -- if you are one of those conditioned to think of your job and feudal debt enslavement as a "career" -- high infant-mortality rates, abysmal educational scores, poor diet, no national public transportation system, crumbling infrastructure, a collapsed economy. Even by our own definition we are a Second World nation.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:02am.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:37am.

dk - LOL!!! Agre!!
Where were these tea baggers when BuchCO doubled the national debt?
Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Yes, the last POTUS was wrong, so let's ignore that the current POTUS being wrong. That's intelligent.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:02am.

Grow Marijuana and sell it tho their friends.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Borocco Mama wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:02am.

We're one big flea market.

This thing's really on the fritz.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:03am.

The effect of leveraged overplanting on the world ag sector -- fear the glut.

popeye (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:03am.

Liz,
Could this be the unconscionable forclosure case to which you referred ?

http://www.boston.com/business/personalfinance/articles/2008/02/27/lende...

.............................

Base hits win ballgames.
If you don't take your profits, someone else will.

1 currency now -yogi (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:03am.

Wow. Filing by phone. Such luxury.

Borocco Mama wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:03am.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:01am.

+10

Wampeter of my Karass wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:04am.

dk - LOL!!! Agre!!
Where were these tea baggers when BuchCO doubled the national debt?
Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Are you people high on crack?? By this logic, the worse the Obama administration does, the less we should do about it.

Crikey what a pair you two are.

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:05am.

Yes, the last POTUS was wrong, so let's ignore that the current POTUS being wrong. That's intelligent.

Please do not criticize Dear Leader.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/12685/somehow-handing-over-1-trillion-is-g...

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:05am.

Actually, I prayed for the crash to begin while a Republican was in office because the Republican Regan started it with his massive deficit spending. The Dems signed off on it though, so they are just as responsible for it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Mean Flurry Kitten wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:05am.

1. rule of Glorious Revolution: you've got to get mad.

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:06am.

Here's the rub Michael,

You're a bit late, and the reason you're late is because your ideologues didn't bother to alert you during the bush years. They we're only too happy to be going through your pockets you see. Now watching you roll over on Obama is the icing on the cake. (I'm no particularly huge fan so far btw)

You think you're fighting a battle...In reality you've shown up to an empty field and cheered into the void.

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:07am.

I'm not supporting Obama's policies - there is plenty of blame to go around stretching all the way back to Ronnie and his New Day. Partisan hackery is just silly - whether is be Obama or Ron Paul.

I was just pointing out that "tea bagging" across America is really really gay and inspired by a douchebag.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:08am.

Comrade Janosik - +100,000

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Wampeter of my Karass wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:08am.

I wrote in Ron Paul's Name. You know, there is a button on the voting machine you can push and write in any name you want.

Michael, for some reason, you are expecting voters to actually cast their vote in a rational and self-interested manner. The herd was given two choices, and the herd shall choose between them. The herd was NOT instructed to think or act on their own behalf.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:09am.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 9:54am.

Micheal - what do you expect to accomplish...some rant about how you are a tea bagger and america is screwing you? LOL! Then what? You go home and hold your guns and gold and turn on Glen Beck for more advice?

I would assume, he expects to rouse enough angry voters to remove some politicians from office. What are you doing besides offering stupid comments, "saving the world one comment at a time"?

debtinator wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:09am.

My little niece has make-believe tea parties. I'll just go to that one.

Darth Paulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:09am.

Latin America has been ground zero for an ag bubble.

ADM is going to see some slow in earnings.

I have been watching another smaller ag co. expand to try to grab some $$$$ from the Latin America bubble....i think they are gonna be sorry.

umop apisdn wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:10am.

Google "tea bagger". Fair warning: results may not be safe for work.

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:10am.

"Actually, I prayed for the crash to begin while a Republican was in office because the Republican Regan started it with his massive deficit spending. The Dems signed off on it though, so they are just as responsible for it."

Oh you mean like the end of Bush's second term....apparently nobody remembers that. And yes, the democrats are very complicit.

Mean Flurry Kitten wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:11am.

"I was just pointing out that "tea bagging" across America is really really gay and inspired by a douchebag. "

2. rule of glorious revolution: All leaders (ours or theirs) are douchebags or will turn into one later on.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:12am.

Anonymous (10:09AM) - uh its a joke (saving the world comment)...and what has Ron Paul done? ZIP! Nothing! He is a two bit hack who gets on tv a few times a year and spouts off crap and then goes back to his office and does nothing!

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Magical Thinking (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:12am.

Peak birth years 1957 and 1961
Influenced by BUT not part of their "older sibs"-JFK (too young) Woodstock (too young) Vietnam (too young draft ended in 1973)
This group came up through the 1960's and 1970's-no doo wa ditty ditty
Incentive of the collective majority: pragmatism and cynicism. They are going to push for solutions.
If the disease has been misdiagnosed the prescription may exacerbate the problem. The cure is no cure. How subjective is your reality? If there is no absolute what is true?

Free market, free market, free market what a new and innovative idea: 1880's, Grover Cleveland

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:12am.

Mean Flurry Kitten - not true. There is a special place in hell reserved for CNBC commentators.

Darth Paulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:13am.

My suggestion to GM is:

Ebay....no reserve....opening bid $1.00

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:14am.

crispyandcole - In the new Sascha Coen movie - Bruno tries to have sex with Ron Paul during an interview. It's pretty funny.

Shill wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:14am.

I have said it on many occasions, this will be a big one!

Potential PBGC problem: $13.5 billion GM liability

http://www.pionline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090406/PRINTSUB/304...

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:14am.

People talking politics... you're not going to convince the other side, there's no point to posting, it should have been evident when I could use the term 'other side' without objection

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:15am.

Are we having a tea party?

Just take your money out of the bank and never put it back. When you get paid, leave in enough to pay the bills and hide the rest. There's your tea party, and if half as many people did it as are apparently doing something with actual tea, you'll have plenty of effect on the system.

Stop with the symbolic gestures and just fucking starve them of capital already, Jeeze.

Bob Dobbs (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:16am.

"2. rule of glorious revolution: All leaders (ours or theirs) are douchebags or will turn into one later on. "

Yah. Go rent the old Woody Allen movie "Bananas." Five minutes into office a Castro-like Great Liberator declares that all citizens must wear their underwear on the outside of their clothing, in the interests of national health. Oh yes, and adopt Swedish as the new national language.

We've all been there too often.

http://www.talesfromthecoast.blogspot.com

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:16am.

EHP - actually we are trying to find out who loves "tea bagging"...

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Crispy bait wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:16am.

What a GM bankruptcy really means in a fiat currency regime.... Not enough OIL to power a 17mmSAAR.

We've got a multi trillion dollar bailout underway.... where GM's top line rev is 220Billion...and they can't be profitable....don't be dopes

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:17am.

For all you morons who don't know what this is all about ( Tea Party Protest Rallies).

I fully expected a complete and total economic collapse of the US 20 Years ago, and now it's here.

There is nothing anybody could have done to stop it.

I fully welcome it because I am of the camp that it will bring down the world ruling elite and power structure.

The purpose for having lots of Tea Party participants is for us to make sure many someones are there to pick up the pieces and make sure the Constitutional rules are enforced.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Wampeter of my Karass wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:17am.

I was just pointing out that "tea bagging" across America is really really gay and inspired by a douchebag.

If "tea bagging" involved, say, dressing in a banana hammock and cavorting down main street with a giant dildo-- as for example, what occurs in any of your typical "gay pride" rallies--then yes, it would be gay.

Upon review of the video of many of these "tea parties", I have yet to see such behavior demonstrated. Rather, instead of promoting some sort of dissipated and libertine lifestyle, the "tea parties" seem to be promoting exactly the opposite.

Consequently, I am required to conclude that you are an idiot.

Thank you.

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:17am.

"I would assume, he expects to rouse enough angry voters to remove some politicians from office."

This is on the surface a rather noble cause. Agreed.
My preferred method is a bit like passive resistance.
Millions of people and very small, individual, day to day choices are what's going to drive the change.
The dot will be connected postpartum...most likely anyway IMHO.

Too many people out there want a pat on the back....
They want glowing "self-esteem", well fuck self esteem...practice a little self denial and take the power back.

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:19am.

C&C - if you're ever in New York City there is a bar in Chelsea on 8th Ave called "Rawhide". They have Go-Go dancers who will tea bag you for 5$. They had advertised a NYC Tea Bag party a few weeks back - and some very confused people showed up.

It was HILARIOUS.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:19am.

Byzantine_Ruins - That is something I could get behind! Walking around with signs, voting, etc...all meaningless. Actions are what is needed if you want change.

btw - Watching Glen Beck cry is nothing actually doing something

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:19am.

.
dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:28am.

Will all you tea bag homos just get yourself to the Castro or Chelsea? I mean starting a movement based on some douchebag's rant on a crappy basic cable channel? That's just sad.

.
Ever been to Naples?
.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:21am.

Upon review of the video of many of these "tea parties", I have yet to see such behavior demonstrated. Rather, instead of promoting some sort of dissipated and libertine lifestyle, the "tea parties" seem to be promoting exactly the opposite.

Consequently, I am required to conclude that you are an idiot.

Charming. homophobia you have there.

http://www.neepawa.ca/lily/images/lily2001/shriners.jpg

Behold the superiority of straight, white culture.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:21am.

Well said Wampeter.

All are welcome to join in on Boston Tea Party Part II

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Mad Mullah wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:21am.

Shoot the head, and the body will die.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:21am.

GM reinvents itself

yagij (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:22am.

"They want glowing "self-esteem", well fuck self esteem...practice a little self denial and take the power back. "
----
The goal isn't to deny yourself for your ideals but to make the other bastard deny his? /shameless Patton rip

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:24am.

wow, this thread went into the gutter pretty quickly

Wampeter of my Karass wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:24am.

..and what has Ron Paul done? ZIP! Nothing! He is a two bit hack who gets on tv a few times a year and spouts off crap and then goes back to his office and does nothing!

Wow, what an ignorant and arrogant thing to say.

I'm willing to bet your "accomplishments" in this vein would amount to an ant fart, as compared to Ron Paul's.

popeye (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:24am.

DNFTT

.............................

Base hits win ballgames.
If you don't take your profits, someone else will.

Mean Flurry Kitten wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:25am.

Related to tea bag parties...almost exactly 60 years ago:

"....Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.

This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population.

Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights. .."

http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php

Comrade Janosik wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:25am.

Patton and every other general that walked the earth can vanish into the dustbin section of history for all I care.

Broward Horne wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

"He is a two bit hack who gets on tv a few times a year and spouts off crap and then goes back to his office and does nothing!"
-------

Damn, I wish you'd leave Obama alone already.

Shill wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

AIG CDS Investigation Begins

http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/04/aig-cds-unwind-investigation-begin...

Smoke and mirrors

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

Michael,

Be careful. They filmed you and now you are on the Internet - complete with a photo. Be careful! Especially at night. Or they will come into your bedroom late at night and HURT MR WINKIE!

Be safe

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

MEL wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

We need some bros and sistas to throw tea parties--wonder how the right wing will react to the "lawless masses."

Comrade Alexei Mikhailovich wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

Intense and earnest?

Is it going to be an Emo bankruptcy filing?

Will Fritz Henderson be wearing guyliner?

debtinator wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:26am.

Is this hate on middle class whites day or bash a gay libertarians day? I didn't get the memo.

Yancey Ward wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:27am.

On the tea party movement:

The reactions to these are telling. The people robbing you practice divide and conquer politics. They don't give a flying squirrel shit who you elect. If that point isn't clear to you by now, then it never will be.

The tea party movement is likely to fail because it is relatively toothless, but it is a more direct response to the corruption on the Potomac than anything else I have seen to date. Even more direct action and resistance is going to be necessary if you want to stop what is happening.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:27am.

I take full responsibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

TCA (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:28am.

The funniest thing about this Tea Party nonsense is the lack of perspective by those who are participating in it. The Boston Tea Party was a destructive event carried out by people today who would be labeled terrorists. Destroying three shiploads of tea was a violent act designed to hurt the British Empire in the pocketbook as well as to make a political statement. Those patriots literally risked their lives to protest tyranny. The people participating in the current incarnation would go home if the cops told them to disperse. Some rebellion.

--
"It is not the business of the law to make anyone good or reverent or moral or clean or upright."
Murray Rothbard

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:28am.

.
Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:58am.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aq_IeKJwjGjY&refer=home

ADM Plunges After Citigroup Says Agricultural Demand Is Slowing
Share | Email | Print | A A A

By Choy Leng Yeong

April 7 (Bloomberg) -- Archer Daniels Midland Co., the world's largest grain processor, declined in New York trading after a Citigroup Inc. analyst said weaker demand for agricultural products is hurting results in the oilseeds unit.

ADM fell $2.52, or 8.7 percent, to $26.21 at 11:03 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares earlier dropped as much as 10 percent, the biggest intraday decline since Jan. 14. Before today, the Decatur, Illinois-based company's shares slumped 32 percent in the past 12 months.

Corn and soybean prices fell from records last year on concern that the recession would reduce consumption. The volume of soybeans processed into vegetable oil and animal feed in February declined 7.4 percent from a year earlier as demand slid, the National Oilseed Processors Association said March 16.

"Slowing agricultural demand and overcapacity are negatively impacting volumes and margins in ADM's oilseeds and agricultural-services businesses," David Driscoll, a Citigroup analyst, said in a report today.
.
Byz - it isn't the demand per se that will kill ADM but rather the 'spread'... oil prices vs. bean prices, ethanol & fructose prices vs. corn prices, flour prices vs. wheat. I'm hearing that the spreads are tightening so the 'demand destruction' is for processed commodities at a price large enough to support attractive spreads.
.
And 'yes' - I used to work for them many many years ago & remember the very same kinds of discussions.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:28am.

Great Job Michael..Keep up the good work!

dk wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:29am.

debitnator - every day is bash a gay libertarians day.

crispyandcole (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:29am.

"I fully welcome it because I am of the camp that it will bring down the world ruling elite and power structure" (michael said)

Please step away from the ledge!!

Crispy & Cole...saving the world one comment at a time!

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:29am.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:01am.
America is a Second World nation. We have no universal free health care (don't kid yourself about the plan under way), no guarantee of anything really, except competitive struggle with one another for work and money and career status -- if you are one of those conditioned to think of your job and feudal debt enslavement as a "career" -- high infant-mortality rates, abysmal educational scores, poor diet, no national public transportation system, crumbling infrastructure, a collapsed economy. Even by our own definition we are a Second World nation.

So your defininto of First world Nation is universal health care, full safety net, maximal mandatory education, mandated nutrition, transit subsidies, public makework projects, with a vibrant sustainable economy. In other words; no one is First World.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:29am.

C&C
Byzantine_Ruins - That [saver's strike] is something I could get behind! Walking around with signs, voting, etc...all meaningless. Actions are what is needed if you want change.

This could end in a few days if there was a saver's strike in the retail banking and investment sector, or a buyer's strike in the Treasury market. These guys / girls have their little rallies and go home and 401k contributions continues unabated to keep the wife / hubby happy and I guess it's a little emotional catharsis or something.

I took my 401k as cash in 2005 and partied with it til I ran out of money. Great fun. If it seems crazy to take the penalty, sie la vie. At least I got to spend it.

Gavshire Hathaway (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:30am.

I wish Comrade Rally Monkey would come here and warn us that the baboons are coming back. That would make my day.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:31am.

Yeah Nova, But wasn't that picture with the huge American flag behind me great?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Mean Flurry Kitten wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:31am.

"The people participating in the current incarnation would go home if the cops told them to disperse. Some rebellion. "

So the only acceptable way of glorious revolution would be with guns blazing and shouting "Yo, mama! Eat this!" BLAM BLAM BLAM! ?

dead monkey bounce wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:32am.

Get ready to RUMBLE!!!

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:33am.

Michael,

What I do when I think they are watching.

1. Shave your legs - It will make sense.
2. Quickly change into a nice silk blouse and skirt. I like to color coordinate with the flag so I buy a lot of blue and white. Hose feels really nice by the way.
3. Wrap Mr. Winkie in foil to protect him from the rays.
4. Sunglasses help
5. Then I walk past them! Sometimes they check me out which is really weird. One asked me if I wanted a cup of coffee!

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:33am.

May I suggest Yurts in lieu of tents; you'll be much more comfortable in them.

popeye (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:33am.

Gavshire,
Good call last week.

.............................

Base hits win ballgames.
If you don't take your profits, someone else will.

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:34am.

Yes, the Flag photo was great. Make a nice t-shirt!

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Gavshire Hathaway (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:35am.

Thanks Popeye Smile

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:35am.

Not true! They have an excellent automated engine plant that produces engines of the quality expected from the Japanese at a lower cost than can be had from the Japanese. That's a nice piece of capital from someone out there. The rest, of course, is pretty much crap.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:36am.

So the only acceptable way of glorious revolution would be with guns blazing and shouting "Yo, mama! Eat this!" BLAM BLAM BLAM! ?

That's rather the definition of a revolution now, isn't it? If you just change the color of everyone's cockade, rather than forcibly dismember the structure of vested interests, you won't get any meaningful change because you haven't had any, you changed everyone's cockade. Change means people's shit gets upset. That's why vested interests hate dynamism and make states moribund by their natural action. If nobody's apple cart is upset, it's not really change, by definition.

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:35am.

I don't think any institutional player is willing to call Pandit/Lewis/Dimon's bluff and short going into earnings season. if the money centers miss, then all hell is going to break loose.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:38am.

Yancey,
People like Rush, Hanity , Levin, and others are CFR Divide and Conker agents, just like their operatives on the left. That's how the ruling elite always win. I myself am a member of the Higher Party, who are beginning to create fissures in their tactics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

sm_landlord (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:38am.

some investor guy (member) wrote;

"I saw a posting from yesterday, think it was SMlandlord asking about Malibu. ... Even some realtors are seeing the light."

Yes, that was me, and thank you for the follow-up. Pretty much as I had guessed, except I am surprised to hear that even leasing is doing "well". I'm looking for an opportunity in Malibu, but it looks like I'll be waiting for a while longer. Wink

mock turtle un logged in wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:39am.

just remember what meredith whitney said to charlie rose last month (march 18 as reported her by CR)

"Look, you have credit continuing being pulled from the system, and until it stabilizes, there is nowhere to go but down. And from an unemployment perspective, no one is pricing in low, mid teens unemployment in any of their assumptions. So it is just a question of not if the banks need to raise capital, it's when, and, you know, let's get some capital back in the system by looking at who can provide it, like the local banks. We will go back to a time that was and not try to preserve a system that is and -- or was more recently and will never be again."

---

felling more and more like its all over but the cryin

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:39am.

To get back on the GM BK meme - that will inevitably drive another leg down in employment - especially for suppliers who will now know for sure they won't get paid dollar for dollar - tripping more BK and for them certain liquidations at pennies on the dollar...
.
From an email I received last weekend [edited to keep contacts anonymous]...

From what I heard the W-I Auction was a blood bath for the bank. ***person*** from ***company*** said he didn't think the total auction exceed 1,000,000 3 year old 2 pallet horizontals that sell for $250,000 went for $10,000 The new die casting machines went for 10-20,000 Everything older was scrapped.
.

Crispy bait wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:39am.

Dubai----The one sure place TPTB new they could supply with oil

Once the manic burst of building has stopped and the whirlwind has slowed, the secrets of Dubai are slowly seeping out. This is a city built from nothing in just a few wild decades on credit and ecocide, suppression and slavery. Dubai is a living metal metaphor for the neo-liberal globalised world that may be crashing – at last – into history

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:40am.

It may be that S&P is in the pockets of the hedgies, and is trying to help pilfer the remaining value out of American industry by BK'ing them and forcing an exercise of credit default instruments.

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:41am.

Michael,

You are hot in that photo. Do you have any where you are stripped, ripped, and ready for action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:42am.

'Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!'

I have got to stop suggesting taglines.

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:43am.

They hollowed out American manufacturing. With GM and Chrysler gone we will have hollowed out America. Nothing much left between the coasts for people who want to work.

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:43am.

>>CFR

In before George Soros

Broward Horne wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:44am.

"At least I got to spend it."
--------

I didn't.

What's the difference between a government and a wife with a strapon?

Not much.

TCA (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:44am.

So the only acceptable way of glorious revolution would be with guns blazing and shouting "Yo, mama! Eat this!" BLAM BLAM BLAM! ?

I didn't say that. Peaceful resistance works if enough people participate. That's the luxury Gandhi had: several hundred million Indians gumming everything up. Still violent revolution tends to get things moving faster.

You certainly don't get change by doing what you're told.

--
"It is not the business of the law to make anyone good or reverent or moral or clean or upright."
Murray Rothbard

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:44am.

The tea party movement is likely to fail because it is relatively toothless...
.
Are you suggesting a bunch of prosperous middle aged and elderly white guys from Naples throwing 'tea bags' into a 'pool' and calling this 'protest' is toothless? Hoocoodanode.
.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:45am.

sm_landlord,
Did you forget my classic from November?: "Let's just rename Malibu, South Oxnard and get on with the recession shall we?"

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:45am.

Mock Turtle:
feeling more and more like its all over but the cryin'

I hear you.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:45am.

'3 year old 2 pallet horizontals that sell for $250,000 went for $10,000 The new die casting machines went for 10-20,000 Everything older was scrapped.'

Ah, post-industrial America. It smells like victory - for Reaganomics.

kcoop (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:46am.

Dead Monkey Bounce: your comments at the beginning of the previous thread are not appearing, but they were not lost. You were the victim of a race condition - Nemo beat you to clicking on the first post (what a surprise!), and there's a small bug in my code that didn't guard against this.

I'll be fixing this later - but you guys with the quick fingers (or scripts, perhaps) are certainly testing things out well...

For today, could you hold off on the competition for first? It will be a headache to move orphaned comments around. Rest assured you'll be able to soon enough.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:47am.

Broward:
What's the difference between a government and a wife with a strapon?

Not much.

You pick the dong when the wife is driving? When Uncle Sugar drives, it's a Bam the mandingo every night.

FFDIC wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:48am.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/04/07/harvard_student_takes_...
(Video)

Harvard Student Takes On Barney Frank Over Economy

WFXT-TV: It all started with a question: "How much responsibility, if any, do you have for the financial crisis?"

Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) and a conservative Harvard law student debated over how Frank should have handled his role as the House Chairman of the Financial Services Committee. Frank was at Harvard University for a speech at the Kennedy School of Government.

Frank said the student wasn't backing up his claims, invoking some laughter from the crowd, and the student told Frank he wasn't answering his question.

burnside (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:48am.

Cinco-X, 1:40 PM:

Bingo.

debtinator wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:49am.

race condition? I'm old enough to remember when they were called "blacks" and "whites".

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:49am.

Did you forget my classic from November?: "Let's just rename Malibu, South Oxnard and get on with the recession shall we?"
.

How about Baja Oxnard? I think that would market test better.
.

ac wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:49am.

INTENSE BANKRUPTCY

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:50am.

Yeah dryfly, those horizontals went cheep, but how many times were they crashed over the past 3 years?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

sm_landlord (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:51am.

RD;

South Oxnard it is! Now if the prices would just adjust accordingly...

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:51am.

'Are you suggesting a bunch of prosperous middle aged and elderly white guys from Naples throwing 'tea bags' into a 'pool' and calling this 'protest' is toothless? Hoocoodanode.'

Imagine if they spoke Arabic and were wearing comfortable Middle Eastern attire though - that would get a prompt response from authority.

PonziMonetizaCoruptiCapitalism wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:52am.

It may be that S&P is in the pockets of the hedgies, and is trying to help pilfer the remaining value out of American industry by BK'ing them and forcing an exercise of credit default instruments,

exactly.... How is it possible that we are going to stand for this... hundreds of millions, and billions will be paid out to bankers on the outcome of the GM BK, when the company itself could'nt produce net income.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:52am.

dryfly writes: From an email I received last weekend [edited to keep contacts anonymous]...

From what I heard the W-I Auction was a blood bath for the bank. ***person*** from ***company*** said he didn't think the total auction exceed 1,000,000 3 year old 2 pallet horizontals that sell for $250,000 went for $10,000 The new die casting machines went for 10-20,000 Everything older was scrapped.

This explains the recent stabilization/uptick in export TEUs out of Los Angeles/Long Beach.

Seriously, that's got to be laying the groundwork for some awesome boutique engineering in the next few years. Some bright boy is going to figure out how to make drop in hybrid drivetrains for older GM models. Heck, "Body by Fisher" might mean something again.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:54am.

Yeah dryfly, those horizontals went cheep, but how many times were they crashed over the past 3 years?
.
They were pristine - I have that on good authority. The die cast machines maybe not so much.
.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:56am.

'If nobody's apple cart is upset, it's not really change, by definition.'

Actually, making the poor and downtrodden even poorer and more downtrodden is the sort of change which generally occurs all the time - after all, the poor don't have much in the way of apple carts. And for when they get upset, you can generally call on the same people you have been paying to keep them in line to keep them in line.

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:57am.

Weil Gotshal May Reap $230 Million in Fees If GM Goes Bankrupt

A bankruptcy for GM, the biggest U.S. automaker, might yield $1.2 billion for bankers, accountants and lawyers, surpassing estimated judge-approved charges of $906 million for Lehman

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:59am.

Seriously, that's got to be laying the groundwork for some awesome boutique engineering in the next few years.

Besides think of the competition... The Jones next door buy an old Bridgeport to put in the garage so you one up them by dropping a horizontal with a couple fixtured 'tombstones' into YOUR garage. That will show them... BTW I actually had that conversation with a machine shop buddy of mine who then asked... "How hard is it to get 440 three phase into a residential neighborhood?". I didn't have an answer for him.

Sounds like the beginning of a new 'arms race'.
.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 10:59am.

Oh, and no, dryfly, I don't mind that you quoted me to your friends about people whose career is spent making sure their inbox is empty.

I have been in many offices where the employee was a "good do-bee" if they made sure they were ready to sniff boss below the belt about every e-utterance or Outlook entry within at most 5 minutes of Their Overlordship hitting send. Anything else was a clear sign of slacking. "Didn't you get my email?" they snap anxiously. It deserves criticism, it's insanely destructive to efficiency.

punditry wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:00am.

whats a horizontal??? Wink

Black Star Ranch (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:02am.

"Stop with the symbolic gestures and just fucking starve them of capital already"

I've been told some of the known ways are: empty out accounts, wrack up less banking fees (ATM usage), change # of dependents, go to 1099 status, drop out, make less than $8950. per yr (no fed tax return required), move to no state income tax state (no info sharing with Fed), change accounts to no-interest, go to cash only, be paid by employer with gold/silver coin (legal tender) at worth of gold/silver.

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:02am.

If GM goes BK - does that include the international GM's? Or do they stay alive?

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:02am.

'Some bright boy is going to figure out how to make drop in hybrid drivetrains for older GM models.'

After some other bright boy gets done designing those cer-met engines.

Dream on, maybe we can start manufacturing A-4 Skyhawks at the same time.

Americans are as likely to care about as much about their left over GM cars in a few years as they did about their Fuegos and Yugos.

Broward Horne wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:03am.

It's official. I have evolved. My free pool time from 11am to 2pm now takes precedence over job searches and interviews.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:03am.

punditry wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:00am.

whats a horizontal??? Wink

Bend over and prepare to receive a tool fixture.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

punditry wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:04am.

440 three phase into a residential neighborhood

Some Pollyanna here has been harping about the closet fusion/fission whateva reactor...maybe that'll suffice

Bob Dobbs (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:04am.

"They hollowed out American manufacturing. With GM and Chrysler gone we will have hollowed out America. Nothing much left between the coasts for people who want to work."

Well, I heard that A123 Technologies (big start-up with actual practical battery tech for electric cars) wants to a giant Lion battery factory in Michigan, and all they want is eight zillion in subsidies from the state, which they will probably get. Of course they've already built their first factory -- in China.

http://www.talesfromthecoast.blogspot.com

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:05am.

It's official. I have evolved. My free pool time from 11am to 2pm now takes precedence over job searches and interviews.

Now, you're talking.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:06am.

well duh, bankruptcy is what bankrupt companies do.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:07am.

How hard is it to get 440 three phase into a residential neighborhood?". I didn't have an answer for him.

They make converters. The limit is probably local code and the load capacity of the drop.

Yancey Ward wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:07am.

On GM bankruptcy. I read this differently than many. This is a game of chicken with the administration, not bondholders exactly. The bondholders probably realize they are up a creek without paddles (unless they are of recent vintage), or are already insured against default. To make a going concern out of GM will require much deeper concessions from the UAW than we have seen to date, and they are holding out for a buyout from the Obama Administration. Management is trying to force either deeper concessions from the UAW, or to force the President to buy out the company's liabilities with the UAW.

My prediction is that Obama will buy out the UAW-linked obligations at full value.

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:10am.

Ouch!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:10am.

"They hollowed out American manufacturing. With GM and Chrysler gone we will have hollowed out America. Nothing much left between the coasts for people who want to work."

Yeah, it was exageration - but not by much.

Take away GM and Crysler
How long before the Nipponese idle/mouthball the US factories.
Suppliers that cluster around them...
Cut state and county jobs

Going to be a lot of little Detroits...Hollowed out cities, hollowed out country...hollowed out industry...Hollowed out citizens wondering what they did wrong.

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

MaryAnn wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:10am.

Sheeee, Nova where can I donate to your Foundation, the one named Funny as Hell.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:10am.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:02am.

'Some bright boy is going to figure out how to make drop in hybrid drivetrains for older GM models.' - Rob Dawg

After some other bright boy gets done designing those cer-met engines.
Dream on, maybe we can start manufacturing A-4 Skyhawks at the same time.
Americans are as likely to care about as much about their left over GM cars in a few years as they did about their Fuegos and Yugos.

Wow, someone is a real fan. What "anon" is refering to is my glowing view of the future:
Technology has a habit of staying one step ahead of catastrophes of its own
making. We'll eventually have metro-cars running adiabatic sterling cycle
biomass/low energy content mostly cermet/ceramic engines powering electric
motors with composite flywheel assist. 2018. Expect the equiv of 200mpg on
50 octane fuels. Pizzas will in such a future environment enjoy the social
status of cigars today.

Then we can find "new" sources like fuel cells.

I takes a lot of "persuasion" to convince water to disassociate. Plants
do it though. Water is at a low energy potential compared to hydrogen
rich donor materials. The concept of fuel cells:

Hydrogen rich fuel in the presence of a catalyst membrane creates an
electrical potential when the other side is exposed to an oxygen rich
oxidizer (air). The only way those desperate little hydrogens can
go hang out with their favorite little oxygen buddy is to give up an
electron. Kinda like like a Liberal Party fundraiser separating a progessive
from his money in exchange for face time with the candidates.

The energy potential needs to be downhill. Water is the thing at the bottom
of that energy hill. This is good. The best part is the rest of the story.
Say goodbye to centralized power generation. Say hello to an Exurban
Diaspora. Remote villages are instantly 22nd Century. (Methane is a natural
gas after all.) [Side note: Dairy cows put out something like 5 times the
milk per cow than they used to. Imagine if we bred them for flatuence
instead of milk. The methane potential is tremendous. Then doomsayers can
tell us that we are running out of cattle.]

Most likely the fuel of choice for "cells" will be gaseous CNG.

Fuel cells will also fundamentally change the economics of energy. The US/AUS/etc.
our lucky that our social structure is not bound up in government dependence
on energy revenue to support other programs. Places with permeable borders
and $4 gas taxes (EU) are in for wrenching social pain when fuel cell
technology takes hold. We think we have a problem with drugs under the
Mexican border, imagine a nat gas pipe under the Russian border delivering tax free smuggled CNG to Germany. Fume sniffing border dogs?

Did I mention the possibility of catalytic disassociation of water (the
chemical equivalent of solar cells)? And while largely discredited there's
still cold fusion.

Any of these technologies or discoveries will directly or indirectly
increase the world's petroleum reserves. Some will make so much impact that
future generations will think us foolish for paying so much for oil as we do
today
----
And the A-4 Skyhawk comment. I'll save that for another time.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:11am.

There's infinitesimal chance of breaking out of an economic depression now. Following the precedent where world war I was originally known as The Great War; I propose The Great Depression retain its original name, and the current depression to be henceforth known as THE Depression

lifeguard1999 (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:11am.

Cars being removed from Deuce McAllister Nissan

The company had filed a civil suit against Deuce McAllister Nissan of Jackson in February alleging it was owed nearly $7 million, which includes about $6 million in vehicles on the lot. In return, the dealership filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in March.

In paperwork filed last week, Nissan asked the court for a a default judgment against the dealership if several actions were not remedied by today.

Also, last week the dealership was temporarily closed as the owner negotiated with Nissan and sought investors.

It remains unclear what today's actions mean for the south Jackson franchise.

McAllister has said he hoped to keep the dealership, but may be forced to sell or close it.

Calls to McAllister, Nissan and attorneys for Nissan and the dealership were not returned.

McAllister, a Lena native, is a former University of Mississippi star who played eight seasons for the Saints but was released from the team on Feb. 17 for financial reasons.

http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20090407/NEWS/90407017

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:12am.

The U.S. Treasury Department is planning to delay the release of any
completed bank stress test results until after the first-quarter earnings
season, in order to avoid complicating stock market reaction, a source familiar
with the Treasury's discussion said on Tuesday.

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

azurite wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:12am.

Ot but possibly of interest: via Center for Progress--it refers to a paper that Carney at Clusterstock had found, but I couldn't find the reference at that site. Appears to be arguing that Geithner's actions represent nothing more than a massive transfer of wealth to the banks because those toxic assets really are worth 0, as market has been indicating.
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/04/06/assets-truly-worthless/

Here in PNW coast/tourist land: I've seen remodels going on the in the general neighborhood for the past year--another one started a few weeks ago. Guess there was some pent up demand. Most of the remodels I've noticed seem to be close to doubling the existing square footage. What I see is a very narrow slice of the economy, but it seems as though some of the upper income people are doing just fine--a travel agent tells me he's still arranging plenty of cruise trips (that's been the bulk of his work for several years), and last weekend, when it was very warm & sunny, about 30%-40% of the traffic was jerks on loud & ostentatious Harleys (maybe 25% of bikers on BMW or Japanese bikes), plus more RVs, including some of the huge ones, and quite a few people in their "summer" cars--porsches (roof removed), convertible corvettes w/tops down, miatas, etc., & yeah, those are "summer" cars around here (or the driver's from CA). All the males w/something to prove that aren't riding Harleys are driving pickups or a few SUV varieties mounted on huge tires--their numbers have substantially increased (those huge tires have got to cost quite a bit).

Many more small planes & private helicopters flying around. However, this county's unemployment is up & quite a few of the restaurants, etc., are not doing too well. OR's spring break is past, WA's was last week & this week I think it's CA's. I saw more CA plates last weekend. Quite a few people in town during OR's spring break, even though the weather wasn't good unless you like rain & some wind (which I don't mind, but I live here), doesn't seem to stop people though. Anyway, from what I see is pretty consistent with what I've read of other people's comments: so far, the middle upper to upper upper still have money & are still spending it--owning & running a small plane isn't cheap, as far as I know. There was some hangar space for rent at the small local airport (heavily subsidized by taxpayers, very few & always subsidized commercial flights, mostly private planes) for 3-4 weeks but the "for rent" sign was gone as of last Sunday.

The number of Notice of Trustee (foreclosures) in local paper has increased slightly, a few more vacant storefronts in town. RV parks/spaces starting to fill, but still lots of vacant spots.

New comment system sure seems like an improvement to me, thank you Ken Cooper & whoever else is doing the work.

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:13am.

deleted - double

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

spectralapplied wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:13am.

You should really include a reference when you quote chunks of other people's work. This is from Joe Bageant

http://www.joebageant.com/

Michael (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:13am.

Use Silver-Zinc batteries. Their fully recyclable and eco friendly, and pack quite a punch.
http://www.zpowerbattery.com/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn the 7TH Amendment maggot!
Red Beckman - Fully Informed Jury
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7385583011526915030&hl=en

Angry Saver wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:14am.

FWIW, I classify my employment status as U-7 - unwilling to exchange time on earth for present and future bailouts, inflation, vanity, banker bonuses, bank bondholder guarantees, political corruption, preservation of false wealth, etc.

By credibly threatening to devalue money, Bernanke has increased the value of my time. CONgress has galvinized my views.

Let's see them tax my work going forward.

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:14am.

.
It's official. I have evolved. My free pool time from 11am to 2pm now takes precedence over job searches and interviews.

::::

BH - You just aren't looking in the right places for work.
.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:14am.

The U.S. Treasury Department is planning to delay the release of any
completed bank stress test results until after the first-quarter earnings
season, in order to avoid complicating stock market reaction,

"Truth? You can't handle the truth!"

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:14am.

With GM and Chrysler gone we will have hollowed out America. Nothing much left between the coasts for people who want to work.

No here's some irony. We spend billions trying to educate people in the wrong areas, creating highly educated (and over-indebted) baristas, when we could have spent that money subsidizing the right industries.

UNFUFU DEL RIO wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:15am.

Have any of you ever biked in or around Havana, Cuba? I wonder if Cubans with no cars have a higher longevity than Americans?

The future of "suburbian" America is changing in front of us, but we do not want to see it.

spectralapplied wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:15am.

Sorry, that last comment was in reference to this comment:

"Yet, even if we think in that sort of outdated terminology, First, Second and Third World, and most Americans do, then America is a Second World nation. We have no universal free health care (don't kid yourself about the plan ..."

Dead_Monkey_Bounce wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:15am.

I'm not racing to be first, I just !post 1 in the chat and it lands where it lands Smile

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:16am.

talk to your supplier. Lines have to be beefed up for 3 phase because inductive motors pull AND push a lot of current onto the lines. Business usually pay a premium for this sort of electric service, along with an "estimated" bill for their usage.

Yancey Ward wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:16am.

Yeah, a stock dropping is complicated.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:18am.

also, there are some good posts on Krugman's page (kind of cute though, he just saw Richard Koo's CSIS presentation from last October and it's giving him pause for thought. I remember posting that within a couple days of the presentation and talking about it in the comments throughout Oct/Nov). There's one for comparing the 2 modern depressions, and one that does a very good job of backing up my assertion that 1980 was Year Zero for the credit bubble. NakedCapitalism had a crosspost of a VoxEU article... summary being this is to date worse than the great depression. It won't be long before the admissions cascade through the generations that this is the worst economic contraction in their lifetimes

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:19am.

"Ever been to Naples?"

'vedi Napoli e poi muori'.

popeye (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:20am.

Rob Dawg,
Great post. I have a poetic mental reservation tied to a picture of a poor waif wandering the pathways calling out "flatulance for sale"; but other than that.....

.............................

Base hits win ballgames.
If you don't take your profits, someone else will.

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:20am.

"FWIW, I classify my employment status as U-7 - unwilling to exchange time on earth for present and future bailouts, inflation, vanity, banker bonuses, bank bondholder guarantees, political corruption, preservation of false wealth, etc."

Living with your Mom, huh? Wink

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:20am.

"Government job, only security in town. "

Public universities might be sweatin' it.

Magical Thinking (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:20am.

If they sell this off piecemeal can the eastern midatlantic retain the Carolinas?
I'm rather fond of those.

fallonPDX (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:22am.

When GM and Chrysler go bankrupt, is it safe to assume their pension obligations come on to the US government balance sheet?

http://www.pbgc.gov/workers-retirees/benefits-information/content/page13...

And as the PBGC does not guarantee health and disability benefits will not those obligations also come on to to the US government balance sheet.

Bankruptcy is de facto bailout of these dinosaurs. One can only hope that the bond holders are wiped out too.

Angry Saver wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:22am.

It's odd that so many work so hard and yet have nothing to show for it.

Less is more. There is no reason we need to work 40hrs/week anymore. What's the point? You end up giving the $$$$ to banks/wall street or end up paying more for housing and education. Talk about hamsters on wheels.

If you want to make $$$$$, you need to get in on the sham of expanding credit. Any credit expansion is acceptable. Shams are preferred though as they are easier true wealth creation for the banks to lend against.

True wealth creation destroys debt. See the problem, the flaw in the debt money system? It's right in front of you.

Angry Saver wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:22am.

It's odd that so many work so hard and yet have nothing to show for it.

Less is more. There is no reason we need to work 40hrs/week anymore. What's the point? You end up giving the $$$$ to banks/wall street or end up paying more for housing and education. Talk about hamsters on wheels.

If you want to make $$$$$, you need to get in on the sham of expanding credit. Any credit expansion is acceptable. Shams are preferred though as they are easier true wealth creation for the banks to lend against.

True wealth creation destroys debt. See the problem, the flaw in the debt money system? It's right in front of you.

linked wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:22am.

Dubai as an object lesson on what can happen when greed trumps humanity. Suffering is intense behind the facade. Hoocoodanoode?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai_b_18385...

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:22am.

So, since they are delaying the bank "stress test" results. Does this mean they have actual information to release? It sounds that way

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:23am.

If they were the right industries, they wouldn't need subsidizing.

sm_landlord (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:23am.

BSR writes;
"be paid by employer with gold/silver coin (legal tender) at worth of gold/silver. "

Not sure how that would work while banks are still operating. The spread on gold coins is still pretty big, so the employer and employee would be paying a transaction tax to the local coin dealer to the extent they needed to convert the payment to and from cash.

Sinomania! wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:23am.

Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp, GM's Chinese partner, in their number one market - China, may get Buick. Interesting end to an iconic American brand, no?

Gavshire Hathaway (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:24am.

OK, so why does the treasury delay releasing the results of the stress tests? Does this suggest that results are contradictory to earnings? If so, let's look at the options:

1) Earnings are bad but the stress tests are going to be a free pass? I doubt that the government would delay results if this were the case. They'd sooner juice markets.
2) Earnings are decent, but the stress tests are going to reveal some weakness and further dilution. And they don't want to put a damper on the rally prematurely.
3) Earnings are going to be bad, and the stress test results will also be bad, and they don't want to cause a panic.
4) Earnings are decent, and the stress tests are a free pass. Again, I doubt the government would delay results. They'd rather juice the markets.

It really depends on whether the stress tests are real, or an illusion to restore faith in our venerable banking institutions. And the degree to which banks have to write down their impaired assets vs. good earnings from solid refi volumes and gains from AIG.

My money is on either #2 or #3. This would also be consistent with the recent discussion of the uptick rule. It would be moot if they expected the market to recover.

Thoughts?????

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:25am.

I have 220v 200A service. It was a definite selling feature for me. Mrs. Dawg didn't care much but her brother the electrician just gave me a knowing wink. It is kind of emblematic of our current (pun intended) situations. 220v is cheap when building. So is 2x6 exterior walls in new construction. Those costs are anywhere from pennies per square foot to actual savings up front. The payback at the extreme is still only a matter of months. Do we build with 2x6s? No. Crappy 2x4s doubled up and still 80% weakened with pipe cuts. This is what GM did.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:27am.

Thoughts?????

They want you to think, that they think, that you think, that they want you to think the banks are safe.

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:28am.

"we could have spent that money subsidizing the right industries."

I would argue that it is best left to the market and the individual, to determine which industries to invest or train in.

Now, if the Government wants to subsidize labor, and industry in general, via Tax credits or X% healthcare coverage, I am on board.

nova (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:28am.

Probably Door #2 - Why #3 unless there is a deep game going on? Perhaps tied to the comment made by G about yanking bank management? O is going to use the results of the stress test to slap the Bankers down?

http://afterthecrash.net - Home of the Doomer Story Portal and Other Stuff

scone wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:28am.

Do we build with 2x6s? - RD

I did, it's becoming the common thing here in the PacNW because you get more insulation, and it's easier to meet the new earthquake and shear wall requirements. OTOH lumber is cheaper here, I imagine.

Byzantine_Ruins (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:30am.

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 2:20pm.

FWIW, I classify my employment status as U-7

Living with your Mom, huh?

LOL, you will be too momentarily. Or she'll be living with you. The death of the extended family and its replacement with the unsustainable nuclear unit was a major part of the destruction of your society. The degree to which people are programmed to dopehood is so funny.

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:30am.

Subsidizing industry with tax cuts!? Now that's change I can believe in;-)

bleh (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:31am.

tea party. useless. dont pay your taxes and loans. simple and effective. be prepared for a fight though. tea parties? an equivalent of a boston tea party today would be to sink one of the import ships from china.

lets face it, america has no balls... yet.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:31am.

dryfly,
Depends on how close to the substation or an industrial area he is. If it's not already in place at the street level, it's probably cost prohibitive to have it upgraded/installed.

Here's a good guideline table of what service is used for what areas.
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6804/picture1b.png

If he lives in a rural or suburban area, the chance he can get 3 phase in his garage diminish significantly

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:32am.

2X6" in 24" centers actually uses less wood than 2X4" construction if done right.

JRnBJ wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:32am.

And how does this square with rating agency explanation/justification in the Kimco brouhaha.....?

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:33am.

'before the admissions cascade through the generations that this is the worst economic contraction in their lifetimes'

The Chinese have a way to go before returning to their Great Leap Forward days, though. And honestly, the Vietnamese would have to really fall back to the economic level of North Vietnam in the 1960s and 1970s.

As for the Eastern Europeans - a coin toss, to be honest, considering what their life was like in 1970.

As for America - the real economic contraction has been ongoing for decades, if measured in terms of the sort of middle class life that was considered customary between WWII and the 1960s.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:33am.

also, he would probably need his garage wired up properly with power filters so that his equipment doesn't discharge noise back onto the grid

Basel Too (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:33am.

I would argue that it is best left to the market and the individual, to determine which industries to invest or train in.

Ummm, yeah. Government has always intervened. Look at our Constitution. The 3/5ths rule and the apportionment of direct taxes were our first agricultural subsidies.

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:33am.

OK, so why does the treasury delay releasing the results of the stress tests? Does this suggest that results are contradictory to earnings? If so, let's look at the options:

It'd be nice if the delay was because they need more time to gather loan documentation for proper evaluation. Probably not, though.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:33am.

also, he would probably need his garage wired up properly with power filters so that his equipment doesn't discharge noise back onto the grid

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:35am.

Anonymous @ 11:33, I'm thinking of someone I know who lived in California doing odd jobs through 1983.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:35am.

Best money-making game in town. Market psychology encouraging dumb and young to assume too much debt. If they default, lender picks up assets with double digit gains. If they pay on time, they get sweet lengthy term cash flow plus all fees and add-ons in event of refi rollovers. Just another experiment in servitude. Master, freeman, journeyman, apprentice, servant, slave. Debt holders are slaves and most can't break out of the psychology either.

No doubt that the tastiest treats bought with the soylent green credit cards. Money masters care only transiently for technology and innovation (except as it profits them), they just want IOUs and slaves to prop their palanquins. Doesn't matter what age just indenture enough of your fellow man and watch the lifeblood flow in, in form of coinz.

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:35am.

Just teasin'. However, my Mom would never be willing to move up here to snow country from 'Bama, and they just bought a new house for cash, so that scenario doesn't seem likely. I'm presently building, but we have enough in savings (401k, IRA, etc.) to pay for the mortgage for years if need be, and I don't expect that to be likely. A couple of years max "IF" I lose my job-

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:36am.

scone wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:28am.

Do we build with 2x6s? - RD

I did, it's becoming the common thing here in the PacNW because you get more insulation, and it's easier to meet the new earthquake and shear wall requirements. OTOH lumber is cheaper here, I imagine.

You also read Calculated Risk. This is not a coincidence. As to lumber, wholesale prices have crashed so much I suspect it is the only thing keeping the Home Depots alive. The good thing about recessions is that lumber quality gets better. I look at my laser straight attic joists still seeping resin (1961) with two dozen or more growth rings and compare it to the 8 on the twisted soft splintering stuff you get today and swear I won't ever buy any home built since the Carter Administration.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:37am.

"It's official. I have evolved. My free pool time from 11am to 2pm now takes precedence over job searches and interviews. "

I got laid off a month ago and just started looking yesterday and have 3 solid interviews tomorrow. But I DO know where to look.

Monster and Hot Jobs are a waste of time. FYI, watch out for scammers harvesting personal data for identity theft.

97 of Top 100 Classified Sites Are Craigslist

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/06/1952209

Print papers are toast. These jobs get posted and filled, faster than a dead tree can print.

http://gawker.com/5199886/a-big-secret-meeting-to-save-newspapers-10-yea...

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:40am.

EHP - sounds like a pretty good candidate for 'stimulus' if you ask me... build out 440 three phase into residential America... that way we can all 'capitalize' on all these scraped out machine centers resulting from automotive bankruptcy. Hell - I'd rather have them than a bunch of written down MBS anyway.
.
Time to write my congressman... and it's shovel ready to boot.
.

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:43am.

"Government has always intervened."

And that has worked out SO well in the past. Don't get me wrong, I am all for good regulation with as light a touch as possible to ensure a FAIR market. But I am also, a realist that understands that as long as big money funds campaign, the special/banking interests will rule.

We need a USC amendment to reform campaign finance, in order to take this country back from the bankers, or the next bubble industry.

Spatch (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:44am.

There's infinitesimal chance of breaking out of an economic depression now. Following the precedent where world war I was originally known as The Great War; I propose The Great Depression retain its original name, and the current depression to be henceforth known as THE Depression

Like the "Great War" getting renamed WW1, the Great Depression will get renamed GD1

"We're Boned"
- Bender

burnside (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:45am.

Punditry @ 2:04 PM:

That Polyanna would be me. If your closet is 30' x 30' x 90' and has an unreasonably stout foundation then, yes, it'll fit in a closet.

You may, however, have thermal issues to deal with. FYVM.

scone wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:46am.

"You also read Calculated Risk. This is not a coincidence. " - RD

I must be exceptionally slow today, I didn't understand this-- ? Anyway, I've always used 2 x 6, it's just easier, and the big costs are in the finish work anyway, not the rough, in my experience.

"As to lumber, wholesale prices have crashed so much I suspect it is the only thing keeping the Home Depots alive. The good thing about recessions is that lumber quality gets better."

We can go out o the sawmill and custom order our lumber-- the stuff at Home Depot is 'reject,' not even fit for utility grade here. If you're in the country, you can often find an owner who will custom cut with a portable sawmill. That can be surprisingly cheap.

The real downside to the recession up here is, some of the 'forest products' mills are shutting down altogether. Especially paper. Those machines aren't much good for anything else. But the internet is killing the market for certain types of paper. We don't send paper memos like we used to, we email and text.

ille_vir (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:46am.

Uptick rule for housing: Can only sell a house if comps rose the last month.
Uptick rule for layoffs: Can only fire people in a month after nonfarm payrolls tick up.
What else can the great uptick rule be applied to?

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:47am.

"Market psychology encouraging dumb and young to assume too much debt. If they default, lender picks up assets with double digit gains. If they pay on time, they get sweet lengthy term cash flow plus all fees and add-ons in event of refi rollovers."

You forgot the third option. Borrower defaults and asset is underwater - Uncle Sam pays you back!

Martiki (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:47am.

++

Sinomania! wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:50am.

Rob Dawg - interesting observations and something I discovered doing major work on my house on the Mexico border in San Diego county - the framing and wood from 1959 are vastly superior to what I saw when friends' brand new houses were under construction during the boom. Those far out suburban barns will not last 50 years nor will they allow much rebuilding/redesign, saw some very shoddy construction.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:52am.

dryfly,
Replacing all those towers and overhead lines and transformers... not a chance

It would be like building high speed rail to someone's house in the middle of nowhere.
There might be some areas that just need the transformers upgraded, but I doubt it (why spend more when you don't need to). You could grandfather in better service, but someone will have to pay for the increased cost one way or another. If you do that, areas with low population density would be the least likely candidates.
Now if that mechanic could get half a dozen other houses in his immediate area to make use of the upgrade between their street and the substation, and then get the local municipality to approve limited industrial zoning -- it's a possibility

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:53am.

"The death of the extended family and its replacement with the unsustainable nuclear unit was a major part of the destruction of your society. The degree to which people are programmed to dopehood is so funny."

Child care industry will take a beating too , when an extended family model catches on.

EvilHenryPaulson wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:56am.

well, you can get higher class service in a rural area... you'll probably be near some high voltage lines and so long as you're willing to pay the costs for a substation, they'll serve you whatever you want... but again, not the kind of thing 1 mechanic in a garage can pay for. You might be interested in a Fuel Cell generator + Inverter, could be cheaper

pavel.chichikov (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:56am.

Prestidigitationista ,

ditto on Swift.

Pavel Chichikov

scone wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 11:57am.

If I were remodeling one of those 50's ranch houses today, I'd blow out the ceiling to get some volume, and replace all the cheesy aluminum windows with low-e double panes. And I'd make the bedroom windows a lot bigger-- some of those waist-high windows don't meet the 'fat fireman' rule anymore.

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:01pm.

"OK, so why does the treasury delay releasing the results of the stress tests?"

4) the stress tests are an excuse to look at the books and evaluate the extent of the risk that is systemic, without spooking those not in the know. There are no "results" until Timmy G, comes up with a real plan that does not result in him and Summers at the end of a rope or Bubba in cell block C on the end of them.

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:02pm.

Warning following comment is NC-17 at best.

Am I alone when Maria B. says "off the lows of the day" in imagining her merely getting her nose out of the curlies and wrapping her lips around the knob?

If "off the lows" were a knurding game we'd all be in line for new livers.

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:04pm.

The GM and Chrysler bankruptcies will reverberate across the manufacturing world.

My mom works (worked?) for a vendor that manufactures parts for new cars. They have contracts with all of the major and smaller auto makers. Her company has avoided bankruptcy to date but is now preparing itself for bankruptcy protection. And word on the street in Detroit is that most if not all parts suppliers are likewise preparing for bankruptcy protection. The parts supplier business is posited on mass production and volume. The precipitous decline in volume has eaten away at a formerly sustainable business model. The economics no longer work when any of the major players are knocked out. The costs that had been formerly spread across the organization will need to be absorbed by the rest of the organization forcing it into a greater loss position. To make matters worse, auto makers do not generally pay cash on delivery. GM and Chrysler both currently have large accounts outstanding with most of their vendors. So do the other auto makers (however, they are not the current concern). Hence, a need to seek bankruptcy protection. The remaining auto makers are not immune to the aftershocks as they are all dependent on third party suppliers and will likley need to pay more for the parts they need.

Many of the parts suppliers, such as my mom's company, are part of larger conglomerates that generally concentrate on manufacturing and related industries. Some (all, perhaps) of those conglomerates are battered from all sides during this downturn. In addition to these auto parts suppliers, there are few orders for tools, equipment, finished metals/plates, ores, etc. Like the auto parts suppliers who spread costs through the organization, the conglomerates might take a hit when it is no longer able to spread its costs around the organization as well as before.

The sad thing is that we all knew this was coming. It is a slow train wreck.

Sexy Derivative wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:05pm.

Mish says:

These "signs of recovery" that cheerleaders have been seeing are mostly nonsense. The stock market has been rallying because Treasury Secretary Geithner and President Obama are willing to screw taxpayers out of trillions of dollars for the benefit of banks. Such action will not reduce defaults, restore lending, or do a damn thing for cash strapped consumers out of a job with no job prospects.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:08pm.

"The sad thing is that we all knew this was coming. It is a slow train wreck. "

yeah and think of how much money we've spent just to watch

Rob Dawg (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:18pm.

Anonymous wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:08pm.
"The sad thing is that we all knew this was coming. It is a slow train wreck. "

yeah and think of how much money we've spent just to watch

The best seats are never cheap. Have you donated to the hooocoodanode project?

--Like it or not, there will be an Exurban Nation--

Blackhalo (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:11pm.

"The GM and Chrysler bankruptcies will reverberate across the manufacturing world."

That world needs to get it over with, cause it is, over. Time to realign, adjust and find some profitability, sans the federal and state subsidies, the anchors of the dealer network and union, and to get real with regard to healthcare and pension obligations. These broken zombies have been carried around long enough and a BK re-org, is the quickest route to fair jobs at fair wages.

Even better, once in action it calls into question the fucking insolvent big 5 banks and the bankers who rule us.

dryfly (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:31pm.

.
What else can the great uptick rule be applied to?
.
Sex?
.

Cinco-X (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 12:51pm.

"If I were remodeling one of those 50's ranch houses today, I'd blow out the ceiling to get some volume"

You need to be careful about cutting the roof trusses; the bottom chord handles all of the spreading forces.

Dirk van Dijk (member) wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 3:07pm.

why is NASCAR systemically important. What the heck would the USA lose if it disappeared? Anything of value, how many people does NASCAR employ?

Longwaver wrote on Tue, 04/07/2009 - 5:25pm.

I've made peace with the bailout money going to GM. We are paying for the funeral of an old friend who died penniless.

Done