.
Early in the thread for an off topic but this seems pretty significant - don't know if it was posted yesterday - from the AP:

Boeing to cut production of some jets in 2010
By DANIEL LOVERING – 15 hours ago

Boeing expects the changes will result in an unspecified number of new job cuts, said Jim Proulx, a company spokesman. In January, Boeing announced plans to cut a total of 10,000 jobs after reporting a surprise loss for the fourth quarter of 2008.

I made some calls into companies in witchita yesterday and they say Boeing is 'optimistic'. They will have to guide even farther down as the year progresses - new orders are off the table and already a lot of the current build is 'white tail'.

Expect more lay offs, more foreclosures, more homeless and more bandos.

What happens down the road when the inventories have been cleared out but many millions of homes have squatters in them? Will some enterprising politicians promise laws to give squatters new rights and come to power in all the areas with an abundance of such? Never mind that they will never be able to deliver on their campaign promise - the fact that they represent such folks will mean that they will reliably vote for expanding state support for the worse off. Maybe this country is really veering hard to the left without even knowing it - not too surprising after the bout hard to the right.

It may be financially smart to become a bando, but aren't people concerned about how to legally get into the house, and whatever laws that may apply if caught entering or staying?

:: ::

What happens down the road when the inventories have been cleared out but many millions of homes have squatters in them? Will some enterprising politicians promise laws to give squatters new rights and come to power in all the areas with an abundance of such? Never mind that they will never be able to deliver on their campaign promise - the fact that they represent such folks will mean that they will reliably vote for expanding state support for the worse off. Maybe this country is really veering hard to the left without even knowing it - not too surprising after the bout hard to the right.

:: ::

Hymms For The Lord - read 'The Other Path'... even in the most populist & leftist countries in Latin America the pols couldn't guarantee the squatters 'clear title' - all they could do is make it difficult for the landed aristocracy [who own most of the land down there] to evict them. The result was that NOBODY had incentive to improve conditions [repair & upgrade] because NOBODY knew who would benefit long term. That is the reason the barrios & flavelas are so run down and terrible... would you spend a large part of your time & money fixing up some place you might be evicted from or later possessed by some other stronger squatter?

Everyone - left & right - should be concerned about property law.

but aren't people concerned about how to legally get into the house, and whatever laws that may apply if caught entering or staying?

You'd be surprised how many property crimes require a "breaking and entering" or "secured property" element, or some weirdness like that. Don't break the lock, and the worse that can happen is usually criminal misdemeanor trespass, if even that.

Will some enterprising politicians promise laws to give squatters new rights and come to power in all the areas with an abundance of such?

We already have such laws, they're called adverse possession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession

For all the talk about banks making money due to low interest rates, even a record high net margin isn't going to do anything if the loans you are making default like crazy. If you can make 5% profit on a loan, you still only need 1 in 20 loans to default (and say there is a recovery rate of 25%) to pretty much destroy all your profits.

Lending right now is horribly tough to do right. If I were a bank, given what's happening to unemployment, I wouldn't lend to just about anybody.

Oh you silly people, don't you know the Federal Reserve is OMNIPOTENT!
Give me the power to print the money and charge interest on it. I'll give every penny of interest I make back to the government that gives me the power to print it, making it look like I'm on the up and up.
In the background I'll choose all your leaders and have them pass all the laws that work in my favor and I couldn't give a shit what happens to the people that gave me that power.

The Littlest Mandarin wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 8:00am.
*looks up*
And this is why Rob Dawg and I will never conquer the world.

I prefer to think of of it as a leveraged take-under. Don't call it conquering so much as establishing a controlling interest through a series of dummy governments.

Pretty much lama.

They need to sign up to pay taxes!

Germane point Dryfly, "pols couldn't guarantee the squatters 'clear title' - all they could do is make it difficult for the landed aristocracy [who own most of the land down there] to evict them."

My wife's cousin was a missionary to the Columbian jungles for many years. When I asked what the biggest impediment to self improvement was she said unenforceable property rights. As soon as an industrious peon improved a piece of land to habitable or profitable category it was taken by those with guns behind them.

Is the FDIC closed for business on Good Friday?

Not that uncommon in the rural South. Additionally, there were laws in the past whereby if you "squatted" for 7 years, the property became yours. I can remember my Aunt having to force a neighbor to move a fence that he had put on here property to keep that from happening. Another approach was to force someone, perhaps a cousin, to a $1.00 per year to "rent" property so that the rights wouldn't be transferred. They called them "squatter's rights".

Cinco,
Those laws still exist. They are known as the law of adverse possession.

"I wonder at what point the majority of Americans will realize they are living in a Second World country. Will it be before we actually hit Third World?"

And where exactly do you think the "first world" resides? I've been to most of Northwestern Europe, and didn't think it was "THAT" far ahead of us. There are some nice cities, but they have rural, backwards areas as well, though folks call them "pastoral" versus "the sticks" as they do here in the US of A.
The deep South has always been kinda' backward, though less so now than when I was a kid; too much TV I suspect. However, many of the residents like it that way, and prefer not to have the muggings, squalor, fast pace, etc. of the metropolitan areas of the North East.

I wonder whether a bank would actually support the bandos if the bandos paid the taxes.

Um, no - it's a little difficult to sell a house with Queen Omega living in it.

I was thinking of a house that would cost more to foreclose than could be obtained by selling it. For example, the house has code violations, taxes due, or other costly problems to deal with.

Is there really any downside to informing your local tax collecting agency that you intend to pay property taxes and take adverse possession when the time comes?

Does the bank get notified? If they do, perhaps this would be a notice that someone is squatting and they might have you kicked out the day after you pay, but property taxes are paid in arrears (right?) so basically you're just paying the government rent while you were there. No loss.

"I say why not become a Bando if you are willing to take the risks. Find an empty home, produce a fake lease, get services installed and live well on the cheap."

Do the utility companies check that? I've rented before and they seemed happy enough that someone was signing up for service. I suppose that if there are back utility payments due that they might inquire about bringing those up to date.

I see what you are saying. If everyone started growing marijuana in their back yard, TPTB would expend a lot of resources to try to stop everybody, so much so that eventually the law against pot would fail in the end. It applies with other stupid laws as well such as enforcing seatbelt laws. They have to catch you first.

Margin Call of Cthulhu wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 8:35am.

Good point...

I suppose that if there are back utility payments due that they might inquire about bringing those up to date.

I guess if that happens you can just move to some other empty house and try again.

How do nuclear weapons figure into and alter the old paradigms?

We need a Johnny Marijuana seed guy or gal to just start tossing pot seeds around randomly throughout the country.

Gavshire,
Recently, you posited the notion that the Fed was walking a tightrope between the perils of deflation and inflation. May I ask in what time frame you perceive that to be happening ? Personally, I take the Fed at it's word - inflation is not even an issue.

Gosh, I never thought of myself as a canary.

Can't sing, don't look good in yellow.

Hymns for the Lord said:

Everyone - left & right - should be concerned about property law.

Dryfly,

I understand this well having witnessed it up close for many years when I lived overseas in Asia.

What I said (perhaps not clearly enough) was that predatory politicians could use false promises to entice people to vote for them, claiming that they would work to get them title to the property or at least work for the voters' welfare (pun partially intended). Then, when in office they would turn around and explain (rightly) that they can't get enough support for squatters' rights, but instead they managed to get food stamps allowances, unemployment benefits, health coverage etc. extended.

So the bottom line may be that once these poorer constituencies get distilled enough to have representatives in office, there may be a new political base of previous have-nots and by then have-less folks. They exist today but not as an attractive target for any politician to go after - they are too diffuse, disorganized, impoverished to be relied up today - this may not hold if there is a protracted period during which they have more access to abandoned infrastructure.

This is exactly what I have witnessed in the past few decades in several Third World countries that I've visited for extended periods of time.

Nova,
Here's a quick reference on Adverse Possession:
http://www.lawchek.com/resources/forms/que/advposs.htm

yuan (squeezed) wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 9:16am.
"Property rights are human rights." - Rob Dawg

Dawg, You've got it exactly backwards.
Housing is a human right and property is a rentier right.

Wow. Where to begin? Start by reading all the other comments above.

Your way devolves into a rule of force and men and away from a rule of law.

Popeye,

The Fed is walking the tightrope right now. Successfully so far.

I'm less concerned about inflation per se -- in order for that to happen you'd have to see incomes rising. More concerned about a dislocation in the bond market that drives up borrowing rates, triggering a tidal wave of additional monetization by the Fed. Currency collapse is the likely result.

Timing of a "fall" is very difficult to predict. It really depends on how good Bernanke really is, and whether the winds of fate blow him off the tightrope or not. But the statements being released by China, the implied threats being made, and the discussions of alternative reserve currencies and changes to Bretton Woods, make me think that it could happen in the not-so-distant future.

Best guess is that we start to have distortions in the currency market by late 2009. Larger swings back and forth, as Bernanke starts to wobble. He might be able to string it out until early 2011, but I doubt it. I'd expect things to fall apart in early-mid 2010. Deflation/default is the more likely scenario.

Typically I'm early in my predictions. So maybe we have a bit more time than that? Or we could have a precipitating event that causes the crisis much earlier. I have no idea what that will be -- there are many possibilities.

Oh, no dk!

Adverse possession requires standing.

What applies (in some states) in the case undesirable squatters trespassing is the right to defend property with force, even if it is a neighbors property.

Plenty of precedent in TX, MT, etc.

If you put a tent on land and live on it for 7 years - do you get the land?

Generally you're entitled only to that little piece of landl you actually occupied using the tent, unless you're squatting under color of title (e.g. you make a deed to the entire parcel, or have someone sign you a quitclaim deed on which you base your claim). If it's under color of title you get the whole thing.

Nope. The closest think I know of is Spanish land grants as the origin of title in some places in North Fla, perhaps around St. Augustine. I've never checked the title of any of those, so I don't know the details. I would assume that some things like mineral reservations differ from the origin of title coming out of the Trustees of the Internal Improvements Fund. It's possible that there is some remnent in the Spanish municipalities, but I don't know anything about any details. Anybody know?

I never came up against adverse possn of a chattel, know nothing about it.

Lawyerliz in MI, are you lawyer liz on vacation or are you a different lawyer named liz living in mi?

Gavshire,
Thank you for the clarification.

No I'm the same me. I had a fight with the password system, and thought it would just
be easier to create a new id.

No I'm the same me. I had a fight with the password system, and thought it would just
be easier to create a new id.

Yeah, I want a new super ego

Try and squat here.

You have to dispute the title and show that you have a right to it. I don't know the "legal" terms, but anyone that thinks someone is going to walk onto a property and take over is dreaming. In TX the requirement of continuous possession may be as long as 25 years if the judge wants to.

scone: Because it would be hell to implement.

TLM,

Just wait a little and then we see who the worst president ever was. LOL.

If you put a tent on land and live on it for 7 years - do you get the land?

Even weirder is that you can only adversely possess against the estate of the possessor. So if you pitched your tent on a leasehold estate (leased property), then you would have title to the lease, but you would have to pay the ground rent!

varies by jurisdiction of course.

There seems to be an attempt to argue , to force holders to prove their interest and claims they cannot.
Squattors: settlers, frontiersman and tomahawk claims.
This may get strange.

As the only lawyer I know who has actually done this--once--let me say
the circumstances were unusual--I'm pretty sure the owners were dead,
and there were no heirs that ever showed up.
The neighbors qestioned why she was there and she never said anything.

Since she was a distinguished looking matronly lady who mowed the lawn,
nobody made any effort to chase her away.

There was no mtg.

The lady rented a block or 2 away, and watched the grass grow to 5 feet of
this previously well manicured house/lawn. Her rental was robbed. She crawled
through the window, mowed the grass, evicted a real bando who was living in the
back yard. Never mentioned having any problem turning on utilities, paid taxes for more
than 7 years and then the roof needed redoing. At that point she wanted title. She had
just done little repairs to keep the house livable..

We are now in unusual circumstances in a big way. Some of that shadow inventory is actually gonna be forgotten about. Maybe for the requisite 7 years. I already know of one place that was forgotten about after the lender sold it--they packed up their office and left town and the buyer had no one to deal with.

I have no rpoblem with the bandoes so long as they don't come with lawn art. Then we have a problem.

Around here bando "lawn art" is usually tastefully displayed on cinderblocks under the axles.

Wrong TCA
--you don't get the sovereign right to lebensraum.

Anonymous wrote on Fri, 04/10/2009 - 10:34am.

me

CashOnly,

It depends on your definition of inflation. Mine is a net expansion in money supply. Yours is related to prices. You have a valid point, but we could get into a very lengthy discussion over it. This probably isn't worthwhile, as I think we agree on the things that matter.

The scenario you describe will result in poverty. So does my deflation scenario. Not good!

The fake lease was just for the purpose of turning on utilities. Doubt the true owner would know about it. Remember 7 neglectful years have to pass. you can lose title in a time 'way shorter than that for failure to pay taxes.

In fact, I'd think the fake lease would be EVIDENCE of hostility.

Can we get back to the real world ?

Obama Sees 'Glimmers Of Hope' Across Economy

President Barack Obama sounded an upbeat note on the nation's economy Friday, saying "we're starting to see progress" on a number of fronts.

The president cited a boom in demand for mortgage loans and refinancings, and a thaw in some credit markets, including the market for some federally backed small business loans.

TCA--

You are correct.

Some comments should be taken with a grain of salt (if not completely ignored).

Speaking of being ignored has Jas gone away?

Don't forget Feudalism. The Normans conquered Britain, but those tied to the soil stayed there. There is some question in my mind as to whether they owned the land in any sense or the land owned them.

They just had to hand their labor, heriots to a different set of people.

....you know of course, a group of squatters moving in next door eventually ends up an unruly mess. The nice "humanistic" compassionate discussion being undertaken here reminds me of conversations that might be heard in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" script. As a homeowner, IF i had empty houses next door to me, I'd sure as hell like them "to disappear". Short of that, I'd keep law enforcement busy with them.

This happened three-four years back here. I used the "compassionate approach", and it ended up with some guy (?) running around in a dress popping off rounds in the sky while the cops foot-chased him around the ten-acres like a group of keystone cops. I should have realized the cars in and out from around the gypsies' trailers every 15-minutes wasn't a good sign. No thanks - my compassionate days were all used up then. The next time might adversely affect my or my family's health. Needless to say, the trailers and freaks are now gone.

Another interesting point -- regardless of which outcome we get (inflation vs. deflation), there is one inexorable result. Quality of life for the US will deteriorate.

Expectations have been inflated by a bubble in asset prices. Boomers have not saved enough for retirement, have not adequately funded pension funds, and have not paid taxes commensurate with what's been spent. Yet there is an expectation that obligations will continue to be met, and as a society we will continue to lead a privileged existence that we've grown accustomed to. This despite the fact that we consume a greater percentage of the world's resources than our labors justify (as indicated by the wage imbalances, and trade imbalances across countries).

The asset bubble that is now popping is the last bastion of the notion that we can somehow avoid the level playing field created by globalization. As the labor market finds equilibrium, so does quality of life. It is inevitable. Any hope of reversing the slide would involve either protectionism, or militarism. At some point we may need to decide whether we want to try to raise the level of all boats (bring up the emerging world), or slow our own decline by attempting to reverse globalization. In a resource constrained world, either options has its perils.

The asset bubble that is now popping is the last bastion of the notion that we can somehow avoid the level playing field created by globalization.

Interesting that your argument assumes a fact few Americans have internalized - a globalized norm.

Littlest Mandarin writes...

That's right, and the dupes bleating about property rights are really just class warriors roped into fighting to preserve claim to wealth that will never be realized for oligarchs because someone told them it was to "defend what's theirs".

Land and more generally real wealth distribution is a key indicator of a society's health, and a tall, narrow wealth pyramid is sure to topple. But you'll get some dittohead who wants to bleat about Marx or something while he cuts his own throat; the same sucker that wants to repeal inheritance tax so they can pass 100k to their kids... oh, and destroy your country by establishing a heriditary monied aristocracy. "Oh yeah, that. Well, it goes well with the prison industry state-within-a-state I advocate too!"

Zow! Dude...you're...like...totally stealing my best rants!

Are you really Comrade Byzantine Ruins' pen-name?

There is a great concept of Commonwealth - the Common Weal - in the Anglo tradition - that these fools have forgotten.

"Oregon and Florida might be different countries, almost."
-That may be a good thing .
"you're not selling the right."
-You may purchase land but various mineral rights may already be owned or are not transferred to you at time of purchase.

new thread ............ and it's been there for a long time.

IIRC, the Third World - real property question is covered in Hernando DeSoto's The Mystery of Capital. I read it so long ago I don't really remember it well enough to cite any quotes.

OT - Oooops!

"The government said Friday the federal budget deficit for the first half of fiscal 2009 jumped to $956.8 billion, more than $500 billion above the gap for all of the prior fiscal year. " Lets not forget the $50-billion Obama forgot about for the military yesterday. I think they call that a TRILLION-DOLLARS in a half year?

Yep, the economy seems like it's on the right track. Everything is OK. And then you also have CNN/Money journalists that ask questions for surveys like: "Talkback: What do you need to see to convince you the economy is stabilizing?"

If a steaming pile of unknown brown matter smells like cow-shit, looks like cow-shit, feels like cow-shit, and tastes like cow-shit, chances are, it's cow-shit. Also, chances are the evaluator is an idiot to taste it to be sure.

They estimate that steaming pile will total 1.85-trillion this year. Now THAT'S a lot of steamy crap.