Comments for "Retail Sales Decline in March"


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Hold on, I'm confused. Are you saying that bailed-out banks don't go shopping at the GAP?


march has fewer days than february, right?


wow. Citigroup at ~4.30 pre-market, meaning that the UST has made money (pr pretty close) on its common equity investment.


A ray of hope that Americans have some common sense. The stock market pump & dump was making me wonder.


08:54 ET 10-Yr: +10/32..2.821%.. USD/JPY: 99.3400.. EUR/USD: 1.3237
Ticking Up: Treasuries are bid with a little burst of activity helping the move after data, while the retail sales numbers were very poor and the PPI components all bond friendly, the market had been looking for as much. The remainder of the day's data will take a backseat to the Fed who should begin their latest buyback business in an hour or so. The 10-yr has pushed the yield back off to the 2.821%, levels last seen at the start of the month with the mid-curve taking the lead. The curve has been bent well flattener with the 2-01-yr yield spread backed off to 196.0.

http://www.briefing.com/Investor/Public/MarketSnapshot/BondMarketUpdate.htm

.............................

If you don't take your profits, someone else will.


How to Puff Up Earnings, Goldman Sachs Style http://bit.ly/1mjiGW Truly astounding . . the word Chutzpah simply does not do it justice . . .


Automobile and parts sales declined 2.3% in March (compared to February), but excluding autos, all other sales declined -0.9%.

The Double Negative Nazi in me can't help pointing out that a -0.9% decline is a 0.9% increase.


I'm glad the apparatus of state can still choke out negative figures that will be politically unpopular.


(with apologies to Carly Simon)

You spent money @ the Wall Street party
Like buying so many yachts
Your bling strategically placed below one's thigh
Your commode. it was in the shade of apricot
You had one eye in the mirror
As you watched yourself squeeze one off
And all the MBA's dreamed that they'd make partner
They'd be your partner, and

You're John Thain
You probably think this song is about you
You're John Thain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?


These figures confirm what I suspected - People ran out in January and February and used the hundreds of millions of dollars of gift cards they got for Christmas, out of concerns that the retailers would file for bankruptcy and the cards would be worthless. We all saw those e-mail message running around the web that certain major retailers were closing after the first of the year and to use the gift cards or lose them.

The increases in January and February were an accounting gimic - the gift cards were sold in November and December but the accounting rules do not permit the retailer to recognize the income until the cards are used. November and December retails sales were artificially lower due to the gift card sales (that is the month the retailer took in the cash), and January and February were artificially higher (more goods went out the door but the figures just moved on the balance sheet). They still have not figured out how much the increse in gift card sales skews the monthly retail sales figures.


Well, I think the data clearly shows we have reached the bottom. The question is, which bottom? The first of many, so bottoms are like stairs, or just a one time extended trough in the "normal" business cycle of peaks and valleys?


km4 wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 9:09am.
Truly astounding . . the word Chutzpah simply does not do it justice . . .

It's easy to have balls when the market regulator tells you to do it.


How long can the disconnect between mainstreet "job losses" and those shrieking buffoons on CNBC continue? Its almost as if you have to regard everything they say as a lie. Yes. I bought bank stocks knowing that it is a rigged game. I'll sell them soon enough. Anyone who buys in for the long term is a fool.


It is worth pointing out over and over and over that all the Fed's zero interest rate and easing of every imaginable type and blatant income redistribution to the cronies has had absolutely zero, zip, nada... NO effect toward resolving our fundamental economic problems. This in spite of the enormous amount of damage and dislocation it is causing.
Bernanke and the Fed did not see problems coming two years ago, blew off everybody who did see them, then misdiagnosed the situation and continue to this day to apply incorrect remedies.
A doctor who was that ignorant and stubborn would have killed all his patients by now.
Even if Bernanke, Geithner and Summers were out tomorrow they have done damage that cannot be undone, possibly for decades. And we have no progress other than lies and gloating from the big bankers that our gift to them constitutes a profit that they 'earned'.


So now that millions aren't making those multi thousand dollar reset monthly mortgage payments, they're spending them on other stuff?


wally, make no mistake, the patients are dead, they just haven't been taken off life support yet, nor have the families been notified...


i suspect that the "stability" evident in the retail sales cliff ledge of the last few months was only burning inventory as stores had clearance sales and cannibalized their stock.
.
they are eating their inventory.
.
sales go up and profit goes way down when you discount.


Pravda was the Soviet mouthpiece back in the day. One could easily discount any news they reported, because it was all propaganda, nothing more...

Pravdamerica in the guise of the talking heads on tv, is our version.


"Gasoline stations sales were down 34.0 percent (±1.5%) from March 2008"

sweet zombie jeebus, that smarts.


Great Carly Simon aggiornamento.

Arbitrage Macht Froh!


GS down 5.5% premarket. so much for their comic book financials.


It is worth pointing out over and over and over that all the Fed's zero interest rate and easing of every imaginable type and blatant income redistribution to the cronies has had absolutely zero, zip, nada... NO effect toward resolving our fundamental economic problems. This in spite of the enormous amount of damage and dislocation it is causing.

The Free Lunch Economists say otherwise.


CNBC trying to spin anything positive in the numbers. I think a lot of spending is a last hurrah before bankrupcy, and spending money "saved" from not paying the mortgage. A lot of people had free rent due to fannie/freddie stopping forclosures.


"taxing grandma to pay Goldman"

"Many retirees depend on interest from certificates of deposit. Those rates are down dramatically, and as CDs expire retirees are compelled to reinvest their savings at lower rates and live on less............"

http://www.finfacts.com/irishfinancenews/article_1016421.shtml

"Goldman will now proceed to sue Floyd Norris for writing the story."

I think there are way too many people sitting around devising ways to be "more stupid" (or is the term "stupider" correct?) ROFLOL.

Time to go milk the cow...............

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch


So put yourself in the position of a retailer...

You order boatloads of goods from China in August, in anticipation of xmas sales (maybe you ordered more than usual, hoping the public would come through and somehow allow you to break-even this year?) and xmas was a gargantuan bust, so you start selling everything below your cost, trying to lure in the public to buy other junk, but it doesn't work. The public is broke.

You now have a decision to make:

Order more goods F.O.B. China and hope the public starts buying again, or just go BK.?


Next time we see these numbers, we will be reading about the portion of the stimulus the still employed spent rather than saved.

.............................

If you don't take your profits, someone else will.


Has anyone estimate the size of the money "saved" by people who have stopped paying their mortgage? Is it large enough to affect the PCE numbers?


"taxing grandma to pay Goldman"

"Many retirees depend on interest from certificates of deposit. Those rates are down dramatically, and as CDs expire retirees are compelled to reinvest their savings at lower rates and live on less............"

Inflationary and monetary policy benefit the financial industry with the side effect of destroying the middle class - the banks are experts at making money from deliberate manipulation of the money supply; the average Joe/Jane has no clue about these things. So it ends up creating this huge asymmetry and being a giant conduit to suck money straight out of the real economy and into the loving arms of Wall Street.

As you have witnessed over the past few decades of Free Lunch Economics.


Our economy bears much resemblance to the ghoulish flick "Re-Animator"


Looks like a depression-level drop -- greater than 10% annualized -- to me.

Tough and painful being short this market, but I am staying the course.

And, Guck Foldman Sachs.


The facts say one thing and the statistics/earnings say another. If even the smoothed and fixed number show that people are losing jobs at record rates, global exports are effectively stopping and people are not shopping then its clear this isn't over. The question to ask oneself is Will anyone at any point ever say "oohh we got it all wrong" .Based on my 20 years working in Corporate America I really really doubt it is possible. There are so many people politically/professionally part of the current stratgy to 'fix' the issue that a U turn is not possible until a complete change of management is installed. This current strategy will continue until they physically cannot continue, regardless of its rights or wrongs.


Deadcat bounce on both those charts. Look out below.


increase in unemployment of 3% plus increase in the savings rate from zero to 5 and elimination of the MEW 3% - quick and dirty gets one to a reduction of about 11% in sales. Right about where we are. I would not expect the savings rate to go up much more and could even fall a little going forward if unemployment rises a bit those might negate each other and we could see sales bouncing around this level or even rise slightly as the impact of the stimulus is felt. The question that remains is whether the rest of the economy has adjusted to this down 10% level.

As an aside if the US banking system has $2trillion in bad debts - is that not spending that should not have happened. Add in the multiplier and we are close to $3 trillion in GDP over the last 8 years that was fictitious or about 3% pa. In other words we have had a zero growth "real economy" for the last 8 years- which matches with the decline in the average wage.



Black * Ranch,

do you process the milk yourself?


It seems to me this is a precursory contraction. I think by the trade and fundamental haulage figures, we should start to see some downside acceleration of the consumer-sector pullback in April-May. Totally random guess; it seems to me to be a question of how much did the "full stop" of the credit panic leave backed up in the inventory chain that's going to get pushed through before a new price regime takes hold?


crazyv,
+1

.............................

If you don't take your profits, someone else will.


Here's an example of Goldman's double-talk on the AIG bailout.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123967007321015621.html

My question is this: if GS had both a Plan A and a Plan B with respect to AIG, then why did the government have to bail out AIG? Goldman supposedly spent $100 million hedging itself (Plan B). So what if collecting against these hedges would have been costly to Goldman's counter-parties? Perhaps they in turn were hedged with their own Plan B.

All of this just illustrates the folly of letting the government jump into the middle of commercial contracts between sophisticated institutional investors.


How will J6P react to empty shelves that used to be full?, sort of like his or her credit.


So it ends up creating this huge asymmetry and being a giant conduit to suck money straight out of the real economy and into the loving arms of Wall Street.

So taken to its logical conclusion, you have bloated Wall Streeters having sucked all the money out of the system, and you have anemic citizens unable to support the status quo.

At what point does Wall Street then collapse on itself?

If they're so smart, why are they putting themselves out of business?

I'm having trouble seeing the upside for them longterm if 90% of the citizenry is on public assistance.


Considering the price difference in gasoline YoY, why should that number be surprising? You'll be seeing it for the next 6 months barring $100bbl crude.

Last year's "stimulous" will be the center of the W shaped recession.


Outsider (member) wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 9:47am.
I'm having trouble seeing the upside for them longterm if 90% of the citizenry is on public assistance.

1) They get the payoff now, when the currency is still worth something.

2) They cash out into other stores of worth.

3) They leave the US to collapse under the debt burden, having successfully looted the state.


the Gift card selling!!!!!! was not last long....hahahaha


These numbers along with the PPI are a "buy, buy, buy" signal, because we don't need to worry about inflation.


Those Tax refunds must be helping.


If say, the powers that be wanted to cash out and stick their filthy lucre into gold bullion, but had to do it rather clandestinely, wouldn't 405 tons coming up for sale all of the sudden @ the IMF, provide the proper vehicle to get there?


the headline I scanned said:

Reuters: "Retail Sales Fall Unexpectedly in March"

haven't they heard about the consumer saving rate going up, together with lay offs and empty shopping malls? WTF was it unexpected to them?


crazyv,

Excellent post.

That's why TPTB are so desperate to breathe life back into the leveraged credit/debt zombie that is American Finance in the 21st century. If they can't bring it back to life, it exposes the underlying harsh realities about what has been going on in the real economy for a good long time.

I know that the truth is ugly and most of the population don't want to deal with it (loss of real economic opportunities), but putting it off is no solution. Better to face the music and start working towards the structural reforms that are going to have to happen. We can face it collectively as a society and try to come up with coherent policy to move towards a common goal, or we can let Rome burn around us and leave it up to the individuals to rebuild something in its place. Hyperbole?? I hope so, but am less convinced daily.


Retail investors do not make the market; funds do. Opportunities and incentives differ.

.............................

If you don't take your profits, someone else will.


They leave the US to collapse under the debt burden, having successfully looted the state.

And go where? To an unstable country somewhere where the local regime is not thrilled about treating them like the kings and lords they believe they are?

When we used to play Monopoly, the game became *boring* when you were winning by such a large margin that money no longer meant anything. The pursuit is the fun part. That's where all the action is. Once you have it all, it's basically game over.

So a few will have all the concentrated wealth, go off to some remote place, and sit in their cabanas sipping drinks for the rest of their lives. That can get old pretty quickly.


If the O.J. incident happened today, instead of 15 years ago, would anybody care?


p.s.

GS marked its loan portfolios at 50c on dollar. Smile)


Arbitrage Macht Frei wrote: "Your commode. it was in the shade of apricot"

Commode: I do not think it means what you think it means.


Guess we know now why Goldman announced early last night, and set the price of their secondary in pre-market.

I'm sure they had no idea what those retail numbers would look like...


Texas is considering leaving the union, and in consideration of the leadership it has provided (LBJ, Bush Jr.)

AMF


"good read

http://hussmanfunds.com/wmc/wmc090413.htm"

I say one more trip to new lows before any real recovery, and that trip could start as early as today, but I suspect will be over by Memorial Day, 2009. Note that the "recovery" in the market may manifest itself as a long sideways movement with a long term positive drift, but I think that the trough will occur in the next 6 weeks (inflation adjusted).


Outsider, this is a conspiracy not by the financial institutions themselves but by a culture of investment bankers that has been evolving to this point since the recent deregulation trend began. Like Frankenstein's monster, corporate institutions (Citi, GE, etc.) hired the best and brightest, trained and conditioned them to care about nothing but money and themselves, looked the other way as they fueled up with cocaine and other addictions, and will now be taken down along with the rest of us. The culprits in this include the weak and insecure Human Resources staff who, because they wanted to be at the adult table, agreed to the preposterous compensation plans that in large measure drove this devolution. Many others looked the other way as long as it felt like prosperity.


"At what point does Wall Street then collapse on itself?
If they're so smart, why are they putting themselves out of business?"

That's a really, really good question. They really need a strong middle class for the US to prosper, but they work very hard to undercut it. In addition, some of the most blockheaded, tin-ear statements imaginable have recently come out of the mouths of top bank execs - like announcing 'record profits' right into the face of increasing unemployment and pending BKs. I think that the answer is that these guys really are not very smart at all; they are simply good at using their carbide-tipped elbows to climb to the top of their peer group. At base, they seem to be amoral and endlessly greedy, short term, with not a clue about the long term. It is a crowd of people we would be better off without... and since I really believe that the Fed and Treasury are heading down the wrong track, i also really believe here will be a train wreck and someday they will be gone.


Stress Tests: Who Will Take the Fall?

To view our impartial assessment, please visit:

www.TheValueatRisk.blogspot.com


Local news paper poll asked if you have had your wages reduced? 25% said yes. That is a lot of spending money and sales tax money gone from the local economy. We are in pretty good shape here in the heartland.


No surprise that retail sales were weak. I sell into the retail market anywhere from mom & pop stores to a 700 hundred store chain and everyone said that sales the last 2 weeks of March were punk. No traffic and even those coming in were not buying. Easter was Ok not great...look out for the sale ads now...lol


So what country do all the pre-felons flock to?

I guess it boils down to extradition treaties.


I know a Government who will buy those 50c on the $1.00 loans at 95c on the $1.00


"So what country do all the pre-felons flock to?"

IIRC, GWB bought his ranch in Paraguay. Take that for what it's worth;-)


Comrade Kristina:

So true...


Felix, interesting if sales were indeed the weakest during the last two weeks of March, since that is when the market was soaring and everyone was chirping that the recession was over now and it was all sunshine and puppy dogs from here on out.


they don;t need to worry about extradition, they ahve done nothing illegal. that is the beauty. Anyway money brings power that is all we need to know. Slave owners did not get poor because their 'staff' had nothing. This is about creating a new Monarchy a monied leadership.


Waffen GS wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 7:06am.

Arbitrage Macht Frei wrote: "Your commode. it was in the shade of apricot"

Commode: I do not think it means what you think it means.
=================================================

As per Thain's $35k gold-colored commode.


2009=2002


"Gasoline stations sales were down 34.0 percent (±1.5%) from March 2008"
sweet zombie jeebus, that smarts.

Mar '08 $3.10/gal
Mar '09 $2.05/gal

This IMO is a good thing.

Time for Bernanke to admit he is outside his area of expertise. I mean his entire worldview is premised on the Fed's ability to maintain price stability. This is an interesting time to be an academic. Keynes v. Freidman in a real world smackdown.


This supports other evidence that economic activity is stabilizing at a reduced level. It seems reasonable that derivative effects from the increasing unemployment have yet to make an impact. I suspect more gradual declines from here rather than the drop off unless we encounter another credit storm or currency crisis.


The powers that be need an excuse to bugger the buck, to enable their dollar debts to be greatly reduced to creditors abroad.

They must of course, individually rid themselves of their own holdings and turn it into the next best thing, financially.

So when does it happen?


I mean his entire worldview is premised on the Fed's ability to maintain price stability.

Excluding things with prices that change, he's doing a great job!

------------------
sacrealstats


Well, the GS $5B sale went off without a hitch. 10% share dilution with only a 5% price drop.

License to print money.

------------------
sacrealstats


Northeast to Texas and California: Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out, we just had it painted.


UDN (PowerShares U.S. Dollar Bear ) needs to break above $26.00 to confirm an uptrend.

.............................

If you don't take your profits, someone else will.


Allen C wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 7:17am.
This supports other evidence that economic activity is stabilizing at a reduced level. It seems reasonable that derivative effects from the increasing unemployment have yet to make an impact. I suspect more gradual declines from here rather than the drop off unless we encounter another credit storm or currency crisis.

I mildly disagree with absolutely no facts to support my position. I see the US consumer developing new habits. It takes a lot to steer 2/3rds of the US economy but we've had a lot. I think we can expect the trend to lower consumption to continue. Part will be easy. Look at gas prices. Yoy comparisons will be easy through Q3 at least. Unemployment is well outside the more adverse scenario. Taxes are sucking up any potential improvement while dampening spend itself. 10.75% in parts of California. And now that Bernanke has utterly failed to contain deflation it is likely people will delay big ticket items in anticipation of lower prices. That's a self fulfilling process.


Hold on, I'm confused. Are you saying that bailed-out banks don't go shopping at the GAP?

Under appreciated comment of the day!

-------

http://www.afterthecrash.net - After the Crash, a blog shared by the CR Commenting Community. Hoopajoop on over.


One other point participants seem to overlook. Construction spending continues to decay and is very unlikely to revive without massive govi support.


Death by 1000 cuts (sic theirs, not mine):

Sacramentans brace for cuts in disablity (sic), welfare benefits

James Nuñez, 49, who has cerebral palsy and learning difficulties, says he knows one thing all too well – the value of $20.67.

That's the amount California will cut from Nuñez's $899 monthly disability check July 1 because of state budget woes. It is causing significant worry for a Sacramento man who pays $675 for rent, utilities and phone, then struggles to buy food and cover any other expenses with what is left.

"To balance the budget, it falls on me?" Nuñez asked. "That's going to hurt. Twenty dollars means a lot to me."

Across California, 1.2 million people receiving state disability payments will see their benefits cut by 2.3 percent. An additional 1.3 million parents and children will be affected by a cut of 4 percent in state welfare benefits.

------------------
sacrealstats


Allen C wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 7:17am.
.... I suspect more gradual declines from here rather than the drop off unless we encounter another credit storm or currency crisis.

The failure of Timmy's PPIP will take a huge chunk out. Collateral damage from it's failure will be huge, i.e. a credit storm and currency crisis.


"At base, they seem to be amoral and endlessly greedy, short term, with not a clue about the long term."

Start from Genesis 3 and work forward.

BTW, for those of you celebrate Easter or at least are aware of it:

http://users,erols.com/fishhook

Pavel Chichikov


So taken to its logical conclusion, you have bloated Wall Streeters having sucked all the money out of the system, and you have anemic citizens unable to support the status quo.

At what point does Wall Street then collapse on itself?

If they're so smart, why are they putting themselves out of business?

I'm having trouble seeing the upside for them longterm if 90% of the citizenry is on public assistance.

That's a valid point. The question is whether they can completely loot the population and run off to another country like the guys in Argentina did, or do the have to remain in the US, in which case it makes sense for Wall Street not to take the looting too far.

Olson's concept of stationary and roving bandits works well here, as well as comparisons to mafia protection rackets - if you're robbing somebody on a routine basis you don't want them to become poor because then they'll have nothing you can steal.

Hopefully the Wall Streeters are thinking that far ahead or don't plan to run off to Singapore.


Sorry, that was:

http://users.erols.com/fishhook

Pavel Chichikov


"I think we can expect the trend to lower consumption to continue."

I completely agree. My point is that shocks aside, I expect a more gradual decline rather than the big drop offs. Material improvement in the intermediate term is unlikely.


Teaching jobs are being ruthlessly cut by local governments in California, as teachers don't put up much of a fight, and class loads are doubling up.

A friend tells me that the pivotal year for kids: 1st and 2nd grade, which used to have 15 students per teacher, is now closer to 35, @ her school.


When we used to play Monopoly, the game became *boring* when you were winning by such a large margin that money no longer meant anything.

You're welcome. Thanks for playing. Have a nice life.

The pursuit is the fun part. That's where all the action is.

Sticking it to the plebes is the fun part... for a handsome salary of course.

So a few will have all the concentrated wealth, go off to some remote place, and sit in their cabanas sipping drinks for the rest of their lives.

Farewell. Enjoy the hard work, social unrest, and depression.


CR do you still feel that PCE is bottoming?


its okay. goldman sachs will provide for us!


"Black Star Ranch, do you process the milk yourself?"

Process? We double filter it and chill it below 40-degrees as fast as possible. Everything is used - including all butter-fats, etc., for our other dairy needs here.

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch


Arbitrage Macht Frei wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 7:16am

"As per Thain's $35k gold-colored commode."

Again, I do not think it means what you think it means.


This supports other evidence that economic activity is stabilizing at a reduced level. It seems reasonable that derivative effects from the increasing unemployment have yet to make an impact. I suspect more gradual declines from here rather than the drop off unless we encounter another credit storm or currency crisis.

Well the story of the Great Depression is one of destructive feedback loops:

Declines in economic activity would trigger another wave of credit problems leading to another wave down in the economy despite previous signs of stabilization.

This is the idea behind having so much government spending and bailouts to halt the credit problems so they don't lead to additional down waves.

The problem with that idea is that it simply transplants the credit problems to the government/taxpayer and so may only transform a private sector/consumer credit crisis into a public credit crisis.

Borrowing and bailouts do not make problems go away, they merely relocate them.


Waffen GS (great play on words)

I know what a commode is, but sometimes you have to tweak meanings to better fit the lyrics.


This retail number is very negative because we were supposed to have a increase in sales. Things don't look much better for April


Goldman CFO still cautious about financial sector
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Goldman-CFO-still-cautious-apf-14919675.ht...

Looks like GS does not expect looting to be tolerated as much as in the recent past.


Dead Monkey

Texas to Northeast: Thanks for nothing you Wall St schmucks.


"We can, [A] face it collectively as a society and try to come up with coherent policy to move towards a common goal, or, [B] we can let Rome burn around us and leave it up to the individuals to rebuild something in its place."

.....Since we as a society haven't made the sacrifices needed to make the changes as required, I vote for (B). I've already made my "changes", thank you.

- - - - -

Black Star Ranch


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Allen C wrote on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 7:36am.
My point is that shocks aside, I expect a more gradual decline rather than the big drop offs.

What about the events of the last two years make you think we can discount more shocks? We've got a GM bankruptcy looming and some truly scary federal socialization initiatives for just two. It will be "interesting" when California's tax propositions in May fail. That may be the big red button event.


The Anti-Christ will be handsome and debonair, but will smell of fecal matter.


"Teaching jobs are being ruthlessly cut by local governments in California, as teachers don't put up much of a fight, and class loads are doubling up.
A friend tells me that the pivotal year for kids: 1st and 2nd grade, which used to have 15 students per teacher, is now closer to 35, @ her school."

Interesting. I have heard that a surprising number of actual cuts have to do with declining enrollment. That's one of the things which makes me doubt the claims CA's population is still rising.


All this talk about a New Regime (Reich)...Seems like a bit of a reminder.

In in Germany circa 1932 times were tough, the leadership left with no options caved and decided to let the people blame those who were better of. Take what hey have!, we can rebuild or nation clean. We can confiscate what wealth they own and start anew, get rid of them, they are no people. They are all of another race. We are better. They are Jews.

Hmm...


"so they don't lead to additional down waves."

We seem to be following Japan despite calls to the contrary. Unfortunately, we lack the savings.

Most govi types fail to comprehend that real growth is through innovation. Imagine the long term impact of 500B in matching investment for green field projects. The short term prop jobs only delay and/or cushion the decline.


...The following graph shows the year-over-year change in nominal and real retail sales since 1993.
...Year-over-year change in Retail Sales Click on graph for larger image in new window.
...To calculate the real change, the monthly PCE price index from the BEA was used...

From Wikipedia : "The PCE rises about 1/3% less than the CPI, .... This may be due to the failure of CPI to take into account substitution."

And as we know the CPI assumes that american consumers neither eat or drink or use energy !
What a nice american statistic .
How do you spell " fraud , deception , deceit , scam , cheat , humbug , fiddle , imposture , trickery , defraud , swindle , amboozlement " ? You guessed it : "A-m-e-r-i-c-a" !


"make you think we can discount more shocks?"

I conclude that continued, systemic shocks are likely. A growing number of participants are sidelined until reasonably convinced the storms are over. Critical mass realization of economic decline could itself lead to another drop off. Perhaps another characterization is steady deterioration with the potential for continued shocks leading to drop offs.


This board provides a wealth of worthwhile information. I'm truly grateful for it. But, I believe most here are incorrectly assuming the end of the world at the same time while complaining about the game is rigged (as if you didn't know this already).

What if this situation is a 7 - 8 out of 10 (worldwide deep recession and crisis) on the scale of the GD being a 9.5 (worldwide calamity) and the deeper recessions of the last century being a 5 - 6 (73-74, 80 -82 etc).

To Crazy's point, the consumer's not coming back in the US...too much credit has been taken away, unemployment increasing for the coming year(Drunk, temporary energy savings won't likely remain, home atm's are gone. Wealth affect in full affect with homes and investment portfolios/401ks. None of this should improve in the coming year and how long would you expect prior to it "normalizing" back to 2003 - 2007 levels...I assume at least a decade, if ever.

The world is flat and the world has changed. Competition has increased, wages will permanently decline, we might have more anouncements ie Sallie Mae to bring back a portion of oversees jobs as due to the above, talent pool increased for jobs available. US standard of living is on permanent decline. Work week hours will increase.

Retailers without distinguishable/remarkable brands will suffer greatly. Those branding and running well, WalMart, Target, McD's, Nordstrom, Apple, Best Buy..those stuck in the middle of branding hell, JCPenny, Macy's, probably Sears etc. Online shopping will become more prevelant, mall shopping on permanent decline. Most retailers will be in the midst of permanent decline.

It's not the end of the world, just a brand new one imo.


"I think we can expect the trend to lower consumption to continue."

Considering that an entire generation - and a very populus one, the boomers - will be retiring on 30 to 40 percent less than they expected, I think you could bet the farm on this.


Also if the uprising puts in a populist state they next guys might decide to swear a "letter of marque and reprisal" on the SOB's.

Its perfectly legal under the US Constitution to take a hit out on them -- 10 kilos gold (or diamonds or whatever) for the head -- that +10% of all the assets we seize if you bring them in alive.

After a couple of years in Supermax I can guarantee they'll spill and even a big bleeding heart, ACLU guy like me probably wouldn't object to a bit of the old waterboarding either.


Hum.

Whats wrong with 30 anyway. Thats how many we had when I was a kid and our cognitive skills are heads and tails about what some of these kids have today.

Grandma Prosper taught 60 swamp cracker kids back in teh day -- they all learned what they needed to learn


"make you think we can discount more shocks?"

"I conclude that continued, systemic shocks are likely. A growing number of participants are sidelined until reasonably convinced the storms are over. Critical mass realization of economic decline could itself lead to another drop off. Perhaps another characterization is steady deterioration with the potential for continued shocks leading to drop offs."

I agree. The only real path out of the mess is the big three (not the auto industry) and I see no movement in any of those directions

#1 Fair trade with peers only -- W make it here, buy it here and sell it here and unless they buy our stuff, they don't get to sell us stuff. The exception is of course raw materials but when it comes to most everything else -- well yes you can outsource that help desk but our calls will never reach it and so on. To quote Bob Heinlein -- Specialization if for Insects

#2 Direct redistribution of cash to US citizens. 12k a year for everybody 18+-- no taxes, fees or debts allowed + health care

#3 Cut the work week to 30 to count for improve efficiency

Those rules would make the economy grow pretty fast


"I'm having trouble seeing the upside for them longterm if 90% of the citizenry is on public assistance. "

They simply don't care about american citizenry. Their view is global and believe their business will survive here or elsewhere. Besides, even if they wanted to invest on anything else than financial products they wouldn't know how.


Done